To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

Nobody actually seems to hear me when I say this but I'll say it one more time, my daughter is my priority and I will protect her.

I think why posters are concerned you won’t be able to protect your DD is that your posts don’t back this up.

You describe your mother as ‘kind’. A parent who allows their child to be emotionally and physically abused isn’t kind.

My dad loves kids no he doesn’t.

You describe looking after your DD as a fresh start for him. Most people wouldn’t even consider allowing their child near someone like this, let alone regular child care.

You say you are incapable of hurting your mum. This doesn’t bode well for protecting your DD.

Your posts come across as what you can do for your mum, how you can help your mum, what suggestions you can make for your mum to do, etc. It’s all Mum, mum, mum. Not what you can do for you in order to enable you to protect your DD.

Your mum has made some awful decisions and you are at risk of doing the same to your DD. The dynamic with your mum is not healthy and unless you change this, your DD is going to grow up with this as her ‘norm’. It will lay the foundation for her future relationships and how she will parent herself.

Obviously none of this is your fault but you’ve obviously been deeply affected by the abuse to the point you don’t seem able to see what is ‘normal’ and what is damaging for your daughter. Unless you decide to change this, as much as you want to protect your DD, you won’t actually be able to.

Definitely never leave her alone at their house.

Your mum has chosen him above all else.

The idea of looking after a grandchild might seem appealing, but it doesn’t sound as though there is room for a teething crying baby or a stroppy toddler in your parent’s house.

Poppylizzyrose you don't need to make this about you and how you sleep at night

How rude, unfortunately some of us who have been abused have found this triggering I guess. I certainly found this unsettling last night, as I cannot relate to considering for one second leaving my child with the person who failed to protect me from my abuser.

A lot of victim blaming of the mother here

That’s nonsense. The mother was undoubtedly a victim. She was also a parent who failed in her duty to protect her children.

If the mother was posting her situation with her small children the posts would be unequivocal: if you don’t leave your children should be removed.

That’s what should’ve happened. Instead she enabled years of abuse directed towards two people she should’ve been protecting.

As your mother has spent over 30 years placating your abusive father would you really trust her not to allow him access to your child when you are not around??
Wouldn't it be very likely that she'd get him access on the sly?

My father is similar. You have my profound sympathy because it's a bloody minefield.
Here's what I did.
I have never, ever left my DC alone with my dad.
My DC have never stayed the night at my parents' house.
I let him see them fairly often when they were babies, at my house, on my terms, for limited visits and always in full company of other family members.
When he played up I removed them from the scene without any drama.
They have extremely rarely been babysat by my parents (about five times in 16 years) always with both parents present.
I now allow limited contact always in public places as DFather tends to behave in public. Again, never alone with him.
As DC have got older I've kept them as far apart from him as I can, so he doesn't contaminate them. This hasn't been too hard as he's a narcissist and doesn't give a shit about them. He only gets angry about it when he feels a bit of oneupmanship form neighbours or other family members who have loving, healthy relationships with their grandchildren.
I chose not to go NC because for me, that is accelerating the drama. Short, infrequent public meetings have worked for me for years. he doesn't even realise what I've done, which is just as well, as he'd be vindictive if he did.

Oh OP, I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. Your dad will not change. He never has and he won't now. Even if he does not physically overstep boundaries with your little one, she will learn to dance around him emotionally. Placate him. Be quiet when he is in a mood. Pander to him. This is the very least that can happen to her.

And you can't let it.

He hasn't made you ill, but of course you are enmeshed in all this because you have grown up inside it. I think some counselling sessions for you would help you. You will have to pay privately. But I think it will help you to clarify your thoughts and make the right decisions for your daughter.

You can't muddle along working around your dad forever. His behaviour isn't normal, and it isn't ok.

Your DF is abusive. Regardless of whether he has mental health issues or not, he is abusive. When he goes off on an abusive tangent he is not capable of thinking straight. His focus is all about him. You can not allow your DD to be put at risk.

Distancecall makes a great point (along with many others).
I’m wondering if Haahhpy feels “needed” by her mother. This is a role you where forced into my your family. You are not your mothers carer/counsellor or saviour.
She needs to take responsibility for HER choices.
Yes I have been in a similar position.
I came on here and read up on Fear Obligation and Guilt as I carried a lot of responsibility in my family.
Therapy helped too.
I really do feel for you OP - this must all be a shock and will take time to digest.
You cannot leave your daughter with your parents.
Your father may not assault your daughter physically but the shouting will damage her.
You mother has enabled him - my mother did - my mother did not protect my siblings - we are all damaged in many different ways and I do know it’s due to our very very dysfunctional childhood.
I’m probably similar to you - the able one - the one who can cope with everyone’s problems - I like to help and fix things - make things better - put my own needs behind others - I stood up to him (that bastard) it’s hard to call him Dad or Father as he most certainainly wasn’t.
Therapy and reading will be helpful for you - it will take time.
You really have to put the boundary down - you will need to upset your mum to put your daughter first but it needs to be done.
I’m interested to hear what your husband has said.
If your father kicked someone in the street he’d be arrested and charged.
He knows how to silence people doesn’t he. He’s just an abusive bully.
I bet he’s not like this outside.
You should look at the freedom programme and read the Lundy Bancroft book.
You do need counselling.🌺

Is the option of being a stay at home parent and looking after your daughter yourself completely out of the question?

God he sounds awful!

Haven't read the thread - need to do something else - so this may have come up already.

You are NOT responsible for your mother's happiness.

You are however responsible for your daughter's happiness growing up. This will not be achieved if you let abusive people be around her.

You have the ability as an adult to cut this abusive family pattern.

Wishing you much strength, I can't imagine how awful it was for you growing up and now.

Sorry - I didn't even answer you AIBUs.

1. Yes, YABU to allow your parents to be primary carers for your daughter. Get professional care and tell them that you don't want to burden them with such a commitment, but would rather they saw her socially than as a daily duty. The real reason being, they're not fit for purpose.
2. YANBU at all to be so hard on him when he has mental health issues. Those of us (self included) with severe long term MH issues and children have a duty of care to the child that we will medicate and get full treatment so we don't burden others with our illness. MH is no excuse for being a nasty little shit.

OP how long are you planning on being on maternity leave?

Right now things are mostly sunshine and roses with a sweet little baby, especially if she is a good sleeper. It's easy to be a loving GP to one of those.

What about at a year, when you go back to work and DD is mobile, refusing to stay where put and behave as expected? Refusing to stay down for naps and throwing food off her plate? How will your father deal with that?

he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash
It was not your fault, it is entirely his fault. There is not ever any reason to kick a child.

No I don't feel responsible for my adult loved ones happiness. Every person is responsible for their own happiness. You don't have control over other people's lives, they make their own choices as adults. That's how it should be.

You seem to be in FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt).
outofthefog.website/

OP please don't think people are getting at you. They are passionate in their views BECAUSE they feel for both you and your daughter's welfare. I can tell, from what they post, that many of the posters who have put across views so strongly have done so from a position of having being abused, emotionally or physically, so they do understand. They understand also how difficult it is to get yourself out from under the fear, obligation and guilt and the weight of the family stories. They have recommended counselling for you because it is so hard to get out from under without someone challenging some of those views, experiences, ways of behaving that seem normal to you but are really, really not.

Please re-read some of the posts, Evidencedbased's posts are really excellent. It is so liberating to finally make decisions that are based on your needs and wants and those of your DC and not what you have been conditioned to believe you SHOULD be doing. Alice Miller's Drama of Being a Child is excellent on the mechanisms by which we get conditioned into the family dramas and how it impacts on our future development.

OP, what’s the worst thing about your mother being unhappy with your decision? What would happen? What would she do? Would she rage/cry/give you the silent treatment. Or don’t you know because you always rush in to sort it out?

Adults often have to deal with unhappiness and disappointment. So why are you desperate to protect your mother from it?
What would happen if she was unhappy? She sounds unhappy now, so what would be different? Why do you have to shield her from the very natural consequences of her choices and actions?

Something for you to unpick in therapy.

I think the issue is whether you'd want your daughter to have the same experiences you had. I was brought up in my early years in a dysfunctional household where violence and shouting were very much the norm. I know that I categorically don't want that for my own DC, and to that end I have left their father because our own relationship was pretty toxic, too.

I understand that you don't want to upset your Mum, and whilst she's obviously a victim of your father's abuse she is categorically complicit in not protecting her children from it: societal/financial/emotional pressures taken into consideration. You are living proof of the impact that had. You have internalised your experiences and excuse your Mum for not protecting you because, who wants to admit their parents failed them?

If your daughter came to you as an adult, and told you that she felt bitterness towards you because you failed to protect her from her abusive GF - how would that make you feel?

I feel such sympathy for you OP, it's a shit sandwich of a situation. You haven't mentioned a DP as far as I've seen so that probably has a significant impact on considerations for childcare. Ultimately though, your child is so small and vulnerable. Imagine if he lashed out at her. 

OP, as someone with a very similar childhood, I’m going to be blunt. I’m furious with your mother on your behalf. Obviously your father too but that one’s a no brainier. I feel your mother is - probably completely unconsciously - manipulating you and making this all about her and continuing this warped family dynamic where she is the helpless, kind victim and you are the strong one who takes no shit from the abuser in the family. That’s warped and a lie, because you ARE taking shit - from them both - and are seriously considering putting your daughter slap bang in the middle of this screwed up, emotionally abusive dynamic.

Nevermind what your mum didn’t do to protect you and your DB when you were a child, and whether she was ground down and had no options. Think about right now.

This VERY WEEK your mother has escaped to your house because of your father’s abuse. She left her house and came to stay with you - clearly showing agency and an understanding the situation was intolerable - but yet merely a day or two later she is “devasted” when you tell her you’re unsure about your parents looking after your baby. Do you not see how warped it is that the first reaction from your mother - who, I repeat, had fled the abuse - is not understanding or agreement that it’s no environment for your child? And how warped it is that both of you were taking it as read that your mother would return to him?

For the sake of your daughter, you really do have to face up to some hard truths about yourself and your mother. You are not the strong sane one in the family, you are as much a part of the dysfunctional dynamic. That is what BOTH your parents have conditioned you to be - to be part of the madness, to be second or third best, to be emotionally abused/manipulated to the extent you are putting your mother’s wants between your own and your DD’s.

Note I say wants and not needs. Because what your mother needs is to leave and a lot of therapy. But that is her choice.

YOUR choice really is black and white - you need to prioritise your daughter and that means not leaving her with either of them right now. Take all the strength and empathy you give to your mother and channel it into your daughter. And yourself, as you’ve been badly treated by your parents. Good luck.

I know she’s your mum, and that she has been a victim of his emotional abuse too - I’m not ignoring that, but you say she has spent 35 years trying to fix him? Really? I’m sorry but to a certain degree she needs to grow a backbone and decide that enough is enough and leave him, and do what’s best for her/her children (ie when you were growing up and a victim of his....). If she chooses him over her grandchild, then that’s her loss.

Your dad sounds absolutely vile and I would have cut him off too, however I can’t help but feel like your mum enables his behaviour - if she always takes him back and forgives him whatever he does (including kicking her own teenage daughter) then unfortunately she is complicit as he will never change as he knows your mum has no boundaries.

Sorry but she is not a sweet innocent angel - she can make decisions and take your side for once, she allowed you to go through dealing with him and his abuse all of your life! Your child will be better off without abusive family members, including your mum. You know your mum would sneakily give your dad contact with your child too, especially if she’s looking after the baby at their shared house.

If your dm chooses to leave him now, that's her decision based on the new situation. You shouldn't feel guilty for whatever decision she makes. The playing field has changed. You do what you need to do and she does what she needs to do. You are individually responsible for your own decisions.

Geographically we live very close together and I think if I were to get paid child care I would need to move further away to make it less hurtful to my mum.

My god, grow up! Did your mum care about your feelings when your dad was kicking the shit out of you when your were a child? Who cares about her feelings if you stay where you live and get paid childcare - move when you are 100% ready, don’t rush into it.

OP, I need to echo what has been said repeatedly on this thread already. You have been affected by this abusive dynamic more than you know. There was a similar dynamic in my family- father as big baddie (your father's behaviour is utterly appalling and terrifying by the way) and mother as poor, helpless victim who needs looking after. Your mother is an adult who has choices, even if that's hard to see. She failed you and your brother very badly indeed. And she is still hiding behind you, and using emotional blackmail (maybe unconsciously) to make sure she gets what she wants

I was in therapy for several years and I cannot recommend it enough. In order to keep yourself and your daughter safe going forward, you will need to address the enmeshment between you, your mother and your father. That is dark, sad, scary stuff and you will need professional support with it. There will be no easy answers and no absolutes, but you will start to put yourself at the centre of your own life, and that will being peace and freedom that you can't imagine right now

Is the option of being a stay at home parent and looking after your daughter yourself completely out of the question?

But this isn't an answer, the OP had plans. Changing her life by returning/not returning to work against those plans is just continue to hand control to her parents.

OP you have said you would have to move house/change job to have an "excuse" not to use your parents as child care. Do you get just how extreme that is? Seriously moving house rather than saying to someone "I'm making other arrangements for childcare"?

Many of us have been there or been very close to this situation. I agree with pp upthread who say it feels complicated when in the midst but is actually not. I watched one relative destroy herself twisting and contorting to "keep people happy" just as your mother did, just as you are doing in trying to keep the peace now. Her DC were damaged by it.

Look at your DD. How much of this damage are you prepared to pass on to her? Its an awful thing to say but that is the decision you are making. She is already being affected by it through the impact on you. You cannot make your DM's choices for her but you are responsible for and able to refuse to pass the effects down the line.

I can't believe you're considering putting your baby in danger to keep your Mum happy...