To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

OP how awful for you and it is obvious from your subsequent posts you will put your daughter's safety and wellbeing first.

Flip this for a moment, returning to work and leaving your child in care is hard enough. Give yourself the reassurance that DD is being well looked after by a great carer, a paid professional with no issues or agendas to navigate.

There is still time before you go back to work and I would really prioritise counselling for yourself. It's OK to love your mother and feel grief for the child you were that wasn't protected, you are going to do things differently.

Perhaps your mother will rethink her relationship with your father, go for counselling and set out on a healthier future, maybe she won't. No one can know. All you can do is concentrate on how you feel and deal with the situation.

My feelings for my daughter can be summed up in one line: she's everything to me and I'll do anything to protect her that is what you need to do, that is your priority! This means your dad does not come into contact with her, and they do not look after your dd without you present. This means no childcare, where you will not be able to protect your dd, and she will be in the same messed up environment that you and your brother were.

I didn't say that. Someone was using a lot of poetic licence and paraphrasing me

Yes, so it seems As mentioned above, I've already asked MN to remove the post in which I queried that quote ... IMO there's already too much insisting that someone's said something they didn't on MN and I don't want to enable any more

In response to the many questions on this subject, do you want to share what your DH's views on the situation are?

@Haahhpy You haven't said much about your DH in all this. Have you even spoken to him about this situation? Apologies if that's been addressed and I've missed it.

Maybe you should sit down with him and talk about your concerns and what you've learnt from this thread.

OP I'm so sorry to hear all this. Its so so sad. As I'm sure you realise now leaving you DD with them is not an option you could feel confident with. Would you be returning to work full time or part time? Could you enrol DD in a nursery/childminder for most of the week and see if your Mum could do one day per week babysitting at your house with no involvement from your Dad? I'd make it VERY clear to your Mum that if your Dad tries to visit or get involved in that one day per week then you'll be placing DD in childcare for that day too. Only you know if this is a compromise you would feel happy with though.
I agree your Mum needs help from a professional. Unfortunately you can't do that, you've tried but are too close to the situation, she needs external counselling. Your priority now is protect DD, your Mum is a grown woman and has made her choices (and those had implications on you as a child), DD is an innocent in the situation.

Take a step back and think about what advice you would give a friend in the same situation. Good luck and stay strong!

I have mentioned him. He has concerns but as I said is only just coming to realise my dad's true colors. We are talking it through together. He's very calm and measured so we're taking time discussing it all. He's from a vet well adjusted background BTW.

I feel very sorry for your mother as she is obviously being abused and has been for most of her life. And leaving an abusive relationship is incredibly hard. Nonetheless, she failed to protect you as a child by leaving this awful situation. However hard it is to face up to it, and however nuanced the situation was, the bottom line is that she was complicit in your abuse growing up and is now reaping the consequences. I do feel awful for both of you, but that is the reality. She has proven herself unable to protect children against this man, and you’d daughter’s wellbeing MUST come first.

Would she be able to live with you? If you offer that possibility and she says no you have done all you reasonably can.

OP I've not read everyone's responses, but I have read all of your updates, so apologies if this has been said before.

I fully understand how you feel, the conflict of not wanting to cause your mum pain by taking away something that will bring happiness to her life. It sounds like she has had a difficult time, and she would benefit from counselling.

You need to take responsibility for your own happiness, and that of your daughter though. You can't be responsible for your mum's happiness because you will shelter your own life to do what you need to to make her happy. That's not your job, yes her children should bring her joy and comfort and pride, but her day to day life is her responsibility and until she takes steps to take responsibility for it instead of waiting for someone to make the decision for her, you need to put your daughters happiness first.

I've gone very low contact with my own parents for this reason, everything you describe about your dad is the same as mine with a much, much bigger helping of physical violence. Whilst you're quietly confident that he wouldn't hurt your daughter, the fact you have thought about that is enough to say he shouldn't be around her. If it even enters your mind that he could lose it with her (for example if she answers back and he doesn't like it) he did it with you and it did you no harm did it?

He is toxic, and your mum has enabled him to control your entire family by staying with him and letting him act that way with empty threats. It is not your job to fix him, her, or them as a couple. Your job is to live your life and build a life for your daughter, and whilst he has this control over you all it will never happen.

When your daughter is older and he assesses your parenting ability, starts saying you need to be doing xyz because she needs telling, or decides to exact a punishment like pretending she doesn't exist? Mine has done this to my son, and it broke my heart and made me wish I'd never allowed them in his life at all.

With the best will in the world, you have to step back and your mum needs to sort her life out. If it is with him, then they can't be in your daughters life on a full time basis it will be terrible for your child. If she leaves him, it is also not your job to provide a home for her or an alternative life. She needs to build her own independent life because otherwise you will resent never being able to do anything without including her, because it'll hurt her feelings/she will be on her own etc.

I hope you're taking positives from this, you sound like a very strong person, but it's OK to not be OK and it's OK to talk about it

Sorry for the wall of text, it was in paragraphs when I posted 🙄

Speaking from personal experience, the fact that your dh is from a well-adjusted background may make him downplay the dangers here because he may literally not be able to comprehend how a man who can put on a good front can be so abusive, nor how you habe been trained to prop up the dynamic bw your dad and your mum.

I got my dh to read this thread yesterday as it has a lot of parallels with my own situation- I am about 10 years down the line from where you are now. I have spent a lot of time trying to rescue my mum but am reaching the end of that road also as the damage to me /knock on effects on our family are getting too great. I am still vey enmeshed (great word), though Ive managed to keep my kids clear.

The only compromise would be for your mother to look after baby at your home
Under no circumstances should your father be allowed to enter your home if you are not present, you can ensure this by buying a home video surveillance camera (they cost relatively little, ) easy to set up & you can add on, so one facing front door, one back door etc. Any movement send an alert to you phone (you could set it up so that any general movement in the house doesn't send you alerts every 30 seconds)
You (& your DP if there is one) tell your father this is because of his proven abusive behaviour & it is not open to discussion. Your mother either accepts it or re-negs on child care... (or finally leaves your Dad.)

Oh, good! I'm glad your DH is the slow and steady type. I think he'll be a good sounding board and a source of support for you once you've convinced yourself that you need to tell your mum 'no'.

The only compromise would be for your mother to look after baby at your home

I really don't think that's either viable or safe. It's not practical for the OP to monitor it remotely and everything in the OP's mother's history says she will not uphold the boundary. She didn't do anything when her husband abused and kicked her own children. Plus it will be too easy for the OP herself to give in to her own conditioning and let the boundary slide and slide. It needs to be a firm bright line, and the reason why needs not to be a secret.

This isn't (just) about a childcare dilemma. It's about stopping the cycle of abuse and enablement perpetrating itself into a third generation.

Nevada votes in a Dem governor AND a Dem senator. This is pretty epic!

We didn't get a Blue Wave, but at least we caused a ripple in the pond. And I think it will be a stern reminder that we cannot rest on our laurels in the build up to 2020.

OOPS!! Totally wrong thread!

Sorry!

I recognise this dynamic. My mum was the abusive one and my dad was her enabler.

I, too, was groomed to be my dad’s emotional support. He ‘spousified’ me and I was positioned by him, and to a lesser extent, my brother, as the ‘strong one’ in the family. I was on the front line battling with my mum and my dad would hide behind my skirts.

So many inappropriate boundaries were crossed. I remember my dad phoning me while I was at work just to cry about how unhappy he was. One call stands out in particular - he rang me just as I was supposed to be going into a client meeting with my colleagues. But he was so upset and I was so mired in FOG that I emailed my colleagues while I was still on the phone to him and excused myself from the meeting by making up some bullshit excuse about a family emergency. I then had to leave work early to make it look believable.

I told myself at the time that nothing was more important than making sure my darling dad was okay. But in retrospect that was an awful position for him to have put me in.

Everything changed when I had kids. I started feeling very angry towards my dad. Which was really disorienting. I was used to always feeling angry with mum, but dad? I didn’t know what to do with that feeling. All I knew is that I would never subject my own DC to the same shit that he allowed to carry on during my childhood.

My relationship with my dad cooled significantly once I had children. I already lived a couple of hours away from my parents’ house so it was easier for me to back off than it will be for you.

I had a lot of counselling and now, five years later, I’m starting to forgive my dad and gain some understanding and perspective. And that has been healing.

You say that protecting your Dd is the most important thing. But your posts read like protecting your mum’s feelings is the most important thing.

You can’t protect your DD and keep your mum happy. So you need to choose who you’re going to prioritise.

If you (rightly) choose to prioritise your D’s safety then your mum will necessarily be ‘devastated’. There’s no middle way unfortunately.

Acknowledging that none of this is normal is a positive first step.

I know that sometimes women won't leave because they are worried about their kids having to spend time alone with the abusive partner/spouse. But in this case OP and her brother were old enough to vocalise and respond - OP mentions pushing back against her Dad - in which case they were old enough for their wishes and feedback to be taken into account had the situation progressed as far as access and court action.

And I speak as someone who was 'spousified' by a parent. Starting from the age of about 13 and it's continued right to this day. It has destroyed my relationship with that parent and was a significant factor in my decision not to have children of my own.

'I, too, was groomed to be my dad’s emotional support'

Thank you for using the word 'groomed'. That's exactly what it is. The child gets manipulated into becoming whatever the parent needs them to be. That dynamic doesn't magically change when the child becomes an adult, or a parent for that matter

My mother treated me as a cross between an adult friend and a therapist from about the age of 11. She would pour out all her troubles about what a bastard my dad was and how miserable their marriage was, but in front of him I had to play happy families. When I went away to university she was distraught- it was like I had died - and she was open about it too. She managed to keep herself firmly lodged in my head for many years to come. I guarantee that virtually every person we knew would say my mother was nothing but loving and nurturing. They would have no idea how deeply fucked up my siblings and I were by her behaviour

He'd left him beside a really busy roundabout just off the A4

Jesus Christ!

Your father was cracked!

Lotta

I could have written your post myself. And it's a HUGE burden to put on a child.

devastated
That's a very manipulative emotion to have over your decision on childcare arrangements. You can still let your parents see their grandchild, in a setting that you find healthy with correct boundaries in place.

Big hugs Schadenfreude. It's totally shit and highly abusive behaviour. I'm nearly 40 and have had years of therapy, but it still affects me deeply

Hi OP, just wanted to add some further support as someone who has also been through this. My family dynamic was identical- violent father who to everyone outside the immediate family was wonderful, and enabler mother.

It's so easy for those with no experience of growing up in an abusive environment to just read this as "do I leave my DC in the care of a known child abuser?". I can understand why you're looking for guidance and wish the lasting impact of abuse was better understood.

I agree that counselling is a must, or at least read up on abuse/self help as a start. The Freedom program book helped me understand what is acceptable behaviour and what is not.

I have always distanced my DC from my father (the knock on impact being limited access for my mum). The thought of him so much as touching them terrified me. I told my DP some of the worst things my father had done to me, which really helped DP support my decision. Best of luck, time to put you and your daughter first

That's a very manipulative emotion to have over your decision on childcare arrangements

Yes that’s very true.

My MIL only sees our DC once a week or so but she’s not ‘devastated’ by it.

Why does you saying ‘actually let’s just keep it to social visits once a week round my house’ a ‘devastating’ thing to suggest?

Is your mum hoping that having your daughter around will ‘protect’ her from your dad?