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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Grown men pretending to be children

315 replies

Happypie · 05/11/2018 08:47

AIBU to be very worried that safeguarding has broken down in England. I have worked in several schools in London where some of the newly arrived “children” were grown men. We have complained to social services and they admitted that the pupils were blatantly men but there was nothing they could do.
These men are being put into classes and foster homes with actual children.
We do not allow adults without DBS checks to have unfettered access to children unless they pretend to be children.
Head teachers hands are also tied. The only way to change things seems to be through parent complaints like in the story below. This is not safeguarding. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-suffolk-46070239

OP posts:
Roomba · 09/11/2018 12:00

Posted about this on another thread too, but this happened in my school in the early 90s. We had a supposedly 13/14 year old Iraqi 'boy' in our class who was clearly in his twenties at least. Full hairy chest, needed to shave twice daily, and was working as a takeaway driver out of school hours (seen by several of us)! We went on a week long residential trip where we slept in (single sex) dorms, teachers had to sleep separate from us but this man was apparently fine sleeping in with teenage boys. He had a big roll of cash with him and was offering the girls large sums of money to have sex with him/perform sex acts in the woods. I don't know if anyone took him up on his offer. We all spoke to our deputy head about it after we overheard the head of year telling this man that they'd failed to trace his 'previous school' and his parents needed to contact the office urgently. Deputy Head said they were aware of this happening sometimes, that refugees pretended to be younger to get the education they'd missed, and that there was little they could do about it other than report to the home office. He did vanish soon after that, but by that point he'd spent at least 3 months in our class

Roomba · 09/11/2018 12:01

Apologies, not sure what happened to the paragraph breaks I inserted in my above post!

Gin96 · 09/11/2018 12:05

zzzz I think you and your family travelling would have been completely different to a refugee woman travelling on her own

www.unhcr.org/uk/news/latest/2016/1/569fb22b6/refugee-women-move-europe-risk-says-un.html

zzzzz · 09/11/2018 12:27

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Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/11/2018 12:32

the asylum applications in different solicitors offices that had cone from this particular country had 2 things in common
They were all horrific detailing what had occurred to make them want to leave their home country
They were all the same. Like a script learned to be repeated parrot fashion

This is something I've heard a lot and I'd really like to know how the "scripts" come into being

It reminds me of an interview I once had at a local "legal centre" which was supposedly for all but actually existed purely as a migrant advice bureau (smugly and very stupidly, they told me they'd been "creative" in order to get their funding)

I listened to several appalling yet contradictory tales and asked what evidence there was to support them, only to see one of the most bemused expressions I've ever watched. Disturbingly, it wasn't so much that they objected to the question, more that their mindset just couldn't cope with the concept that this should be considered at all

OlennasWimple · 09/11/2018 12:36

I can't quite believe that someone who claims to know a bit about asylum has tried to equate a career move where the husband goes on ahead and the wive and children follow shortly after with people fleeing war, famine and persecution Hmm

zzzzz · 09/11/2018 12:40

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Gin96 · 09/11/2018 12:53

It is when your wife and children are in danger. My husband would never leave me and my daughter if there was a high risk of us being raped along the way.

Polarbearflavour · 09/11/2018 12:53

I temped at a council quite recently in children’s services. They had an issue with several “children” who were actually in their mid 20s but were claiming they were 16 and wanted to go to school. They became abusive to staff when they didn’t get what they wanted and vanished into the night leaving no trace!

OlennasWimple · 09/11/2018 13:13

DH and I have also done exactly this (him go on ahead, me follow behind with the DC, cats and furniture) moving overseas. But I had to get us all onto a British Airways flight with tickets paid for by his employer and travelling on genuine passports with genuine visas and no reason to be concerned about our personal safety or the reception we would get at the other end.

It's a world apart from him deciding to leave our small village in Afghanistan to travel illegally across Europe, probably on transport and papers arranged by a people trafficker, with me remaining in a place where I am in direct danger as a result of being a lone adult female and the potential for me to have undertake a similar, dangerous journey with the DC but without the protection of travelling with a male.

woollyheart · 09/11/2018 13:23

Our education system is fairly inflexible when it comes to a child getting an education here, unless you pay....

I'm happy to offer asylum seeking children the same education as we offer to other children here. Education that wouldn't be available to adults here (for safeguarding and many other reasons) should not be made available to adult asylum seekers.

If we want to support them, we need better adult education provision, and shouldn't assume that the only option is to mix children and adults.

Oliversmumsarmy · 09/11/2018 13:28

*zzzzz

I moved countries (in an entirely unremarkable way, because of my parents careers) several times, and my father ALWAYS went ahead and my mother followed with the children. No one has ever suggested this was cowardly nor was it unusual*

Are you trying to be obtuse.

You and your mother staying whilst your father went ahead was because you were economic migrants.

Were you and your mother facing any dangers staying?

I get the impression that the men coming across are more economic migrants posing as refugees.
If they were refugees fleeing death why did they leave wives and children behind?

Someone asked where they learned the "script"

Friend stbexh (married 20 years and was physically and mentally abusive for 19years) was a supposed political asylum seeker.

He freely admitted one night when he was worse for wear that someone in his country of origin gave him a copy of the "script" to learn.

One of the things he said was that he was frightened to return to his country as he would be killed.

He got his indefinite leave to remain and 3 guesses where he spends 2 months every year on holiday.

Friend hopes one day immigration will stop him returning but they don't.

He couldn't give a shit about politics in this country or his own

zzzzz · 09/11/2018 13:33

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Oliversmumsarmy · 09/11/2018 13:47

Your family moved for economic reasons.

My family moved because they were genuine refugees who made a perilous journey together.

When they came to the sea there wasn't enough room for everyone to go so my grandfather sent his wife and children and he said he would follow. But he was captured.

There are no other family members. They were all killed.

I really don't see how stashing wives a children with other family members is going to make them safe. If the reason that the men are over here is because the whole country is not safe and everyone is in danger.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/11/2018 13:50

Friend stbexh ... was a supposed political asylum seeker. He freely admitted one night when he was worse for wear that someone in his country of origin gave him a copy of the "script" to learn

Interesting ...

woollyheart · 09/11/2018 13:51

You are right - the policy is not to mix children and adults - that seems to be what may be happening presumably because there is no adult education available at the level they need.

zzzzz · 09/11/2018 13:59

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Gin96 · 09/11/2018 16:44

@ oliversmum I bet he has another family from his original country he keeps returning to and is abusive to her as well.

I don’t buy they do it for their family, they do it for themselves and leave their poor wives at home to cope with what they running away from, pretty cowardly to me.

Moussemoose · 09/11/2018 17:09

@continuallychargingmyphone I referred to 'children' and didn't say of which sex.

I have seen both male and female children abused by our system.

medusa83 · 09/11/2018 17:38

It is a problem, and most are just unaware of it, or think it's just the Daily Fail stirring.

I did a teaching placement at a primary school in Birmingham, and was told that there'd been a somalian "child" who grew a beard. It's such an appalling safeguarding issue.

Oliversmumsarmy · 09/11/2018 18:15

oliversmum I bet he has another family from his original country he keeps returning to and is abusive to her as well

You obviously know him.

Zzz I do know other refugees. They came here as families because staying meant certain death.

If someone is here to check out what it is like before they send for their wives and children then they are not really refugees.

The whole point is that staying is not an option. Anywhere has got to be safer.

Sashkin · 09/11/2018 18:40

It is an issue (as a doctor who worked in the hospital next to Heathrow I have met “children” who were clearly older than me, and who had been “tortured” by having a fistula created to allow dialysis == health tourist). So I’m not denying that there is deliberate fraud. There will be fraud in any system if there’s an incentive to lie, as there is in asylum cases.

But I have also met patients who were here perfectly legally who had no idea how old they were. Not everywhere registers births, not everywhere keeps track of precise ages. Some rural societies just class people by generation, so child, adult (from about 13-14), and old (from about 40). So from their point of view it made no difference whether they were 17 or 30, or if they were 50 or 70.

It works both ways, I have met supposedly 80yr old Bengali grandmothers who had children who were in their late 20s and who weren’t yet born during Partition. They weren’t deliberately lying, they just had no idea how old they were so picked a number that sounded right to them. And they had been venerable old ladies in their society, not fit working women in their early fifties, so they picked a number accordingly.

And the “sending boys ahead” - have we forgotten wartime evacuees and the Kindertransport? You may have too many ties to leave a war zone yourself (you risk losing your land and livelihood) but if you can get your children to safety you would send them. Pre-pubescent children are obviously too young to travel unaccompanied. Girls in their teens are probably married off already so no longer your responsibility. But teenage boys are seen as young adults, so probably the safest to go. And they can work outside the home, which girls often can’t, so can hopefully support themselves.

Boys are also likely to be in the most danger if they stay - invading armies will treat all young men as potential combatants, whereas old men, women and children may be sexually abused or robbed but hopefully won’t be executed or conscripted. If you look at the Yugoslavian mass graves, a lot of the victims were young civilian men who were rounded up and shot. Not always of course, some massacres murdered whole communities, but it’s common enough to be a legitimate concern if you’re the mother of a fifteen year old boy in a war zone.

Moussemoose · 09/11/2018 19:11

If you only have the money to send one person. If you have to bet everything on one member of the family who do you send?

I hope you never have to choose.

Young children will die. Women are (seen as) weak and powerless. Older men are past their prime. You pay for and send young fit men.

A lot of the young men I speak to - not theoretically I actually spend time with them - are traumatised that they had to leave their families. They love their families and feel the pressure to stay and succeed enormous.

They are not happy, satisfied individuals with their feet up enjoying life. They are deeply, deeply traumatised they miss their families and love their mums.

The image of manipulative individuals laughing at the relatives back home is far from my experiences.

The girls are often not from traditionally Muslim countries but they share the trauma and the confusion.

YOU may well know individuals who are here fleece the U.K. and don't care about their families back home but I haven't met any. I come in contact with 50 - 100 individuals each year you obviously know more bout this than me. Our know the truth because you have read a newspaper. I know nothing because I have only met the people involved.

zzzzz · 09/11/2018 20:05

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Oliversmumsarmy · 09/11/2018 23:30

Friends stbexh was so traumatised and missing his family. After getting his indefinite leave to remain he goes back to visit every year for 2 months.

He visits his wife, children mother and father. In fact the whole family.

Him and his siblings (all asylum seekers who said they would be killed if they returned) All return for a big holiday.

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