To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

Personally, I'm very happy to move on from our past (though my ancestors are probably turning in their graves), because you can't let the past haunt you. Goes for national atrocities as well as personal crap you've endured. It does no good to dwell on the past.

You could always solidify your concern by abandoning MN is this the equivalent of fuck off back to your own country?

The thing is it simply doesn't have the origin the op says it does. A pale is a fence round a settlement and was very very common in the 14/15/16 centuries and the norm then. The pale came to mean putwith the area that was safe.

Beyond th pale means beyond what is safe. It is absolutely not about the Irish. I accept fully the op believes it does, but you can't erase history and the validated documentation of the term. And you can't call people racist if they use it meaning an area that is not safe. Because that's what it means to thr overwhelming majority of people.

The op and a few others feeling it has a different meaning doesn't change the history or popular usage of the term.

And we if use an equivalent. I find the word cunt deeply offensive. I think it's mysogynistic towards women, that one of the worst swear words we have in the English language, is also a word meaning female genitalia.

But others disagree with me, and they use it. That's the way it works.

I will confess I had no idea of that meaning. It’s not really a phrase I use anyway to be fair.
The problem is with a lot of things like this is that you can use them in ignorance until someone tell you not to. However you then get people on here saying ‘how could you not know, educate yourself’. Am I really expected to search every sodding phase I use to see if people are offended by it?

When I worked at a call centre I was told not to use the phrase ‘bear with me’ as it means to be naked with someone and we don’t want that! See people can make up shit to be offended by.

It’s interesting how this has taken a very different turn to the person saying she thought fag was offensive.

Bluntness. Do you acknowledge that English Lords defined their territory as the Pale. Do you acknowledge that they defined anywhere beyond the Pale as being unsafe because it was occupied by Irish people? You're backing up the opposing argument to yours here!

Bluntness. Do you acknowledge that English Lords defined their territory as the Pale. Do you acknowledge that they defined anywhere beyond the Pale as being unsafe because it was occupied by Irish people? You're backing up the opposing argument to yours here!

Or French people - as I said on the other thread, I always thought of beyond the pale as referring to Calais.

Pale has had different meanings in different historical contexts - that is very, very common.

Just because you know one of these meanings it does not negate the other meanings. You can't decide your interpretation is correct and everyone else is wrong that's not how language works.

A pale was a very very common thing in the 13/14/15 centuries and beyond. It was a fence round a settlement. So yes English lords had it, but so did many many many others globally. It was not unique or uncommon, it was hugely common globally. It was simply a fence round a settlement. Not one settlement, but hundreds if not thousands.

A common term used globally and over centuries.

This term does not belong to one country or one series of events.

Yes, but we didn't want that particular settlement lol

We didn't exactly greet you with open arms

And we're a welcoming people usually to visitors!

Yanbu, especially given the context in which MN is using it

I suspect the phrase doesn’t originally refer to the Irish Pale or the Pale of Settlement etc. However, if it’s become acknowledged locally to the OP or by a significant number of people that it does connect with a particular Pale then it’s best avoided as a phrase.

Agreed it means this to the op. I'd doesn't mean it to a significant amount of people, as evidenced by this thread. It also doesn't mean it factually or historically.

So as much as we need to understand the op has assigned this meaning and a small proportion of people agree with her, she also needs to accept that it's not the wider meaning in popular culture.

Her meaning doesn't carry more weight than everyone else's.

Bluntness factually and historically it is an offensive phrase that comes from the English occupation of Ireland.

Don’t try to say it’s not. That’s offensive and racist.

No it doesn't. And that's the point really.

Oh right, so the dictionary is wrong then

Dead on.

Just going to post this, though will probably be banned knowing me!

It's from a film called The Field
.

I didn't know about the Choctaw in the USA, collecting to help in the Irish famine

It is true that sometimes those with the least, will often contribute all they can afford, while many wealthy people walk on by.
Empathy for fellow sufferers

It's good to hear too that Taoiseach Leo Varadkar formally thanked them for this kind act
He is a good guy - Looking at UK politicians, I am very envious of Ireland !

And that film won lots of awards, in case I'm not allowed to post it for some MNHQ reason.

Academy Awards, USA 1991
Nominee
Oscar Best Actor in a Leading Role
Richard Harris

Golden Globes, USA 1991
Nominee
Golden Globe Best Performance by an Actor in a Motion Picture - Drama
Richard Harris

BAFTA Awards 1991
Nominee
BAFTA Film Award Best Actor in a Supporting Role
John Hurt

Dallas-Fort Worth Film Critics Association Awards 1991
Nominee
DFWFCA Award Best Actor
Richard Harris

I also find "cis" very offensive, an attempt by a subgroup of men, to demean and even erase women
I am proud to be an adult human female, i.e. a woman

I also find "cunt", as an insult, is offensive to women

The dictionary lists it as one possible origin. I have 4 dictionaries (print copies) from various eras but none very old. It’s only in one of them.

Of course, most of us on this thread will probably never use the expression again now that it’s been pointed out it has potential to offend. I am a bit offended that anyone is offended by my highly polite post but I’ll get over it.

NB - 1/2 my lot are Irish and a quarter from Pale of Settlement immigrants. 2 of the Irish contingent just said that they didn’t agree with link to Irish Pale being commonly known

Neither cis nor cunt are used in MN talk guidelines.

Cis is also banned on MN