To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

[changehere]

Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

Is this the new "trans thread", now that the GRA consultation has closed and all the fizz has gone out of that issue...

No jimmy this is about Talk Guidlines

It's not our policy to delete swearwords (we're all adults, after all) but we do draw the line at obscenity, racist, ageist, disablist, homophobic or transphobic language, and wording that is truly cuntish.

Ahah, much better.

Erm, this thread has veered off at a tangent.
Suggest mods close it

I didn't know the history of the saying and it's not one I particularly use but now I know the offence it causes will not use it again. Thanks for educating me.

Why on earth would they close it master?

Because it's Irish people reminding English people of their history. They don't like it.

Further reading does suggest that etymologists regard the OP's interpretation of the phrase as bobbins. Another website pulling it apart here:

wordhistories.net/2016/08/24/beyond-the-pale/

Lots of quotes from the 1700s on a number of sites show 'beyond the pale of ....' being just used to mean 'outside of...' before settling as 'beyond the pale of expedience' meaning unacceptable behaviour, which then contracted to 'beyond the pale'.

It seems to me that PPs are correct. The geographic 'beyond the Pale' referring to 14th-16th century Ireland has no historic link to the modern use of the phrase. I can't find a single sourced reference otherwise.

Scottish of Irish extraction person. I wouldn't use "to throw a paddy" but quite like "beyond the pale".

I would however give it up without hesitation were I to be convinced that it's dubious etymology means that the expression is a cause of great offence to Irish people at large.

The evidence on this thread and the other doesn't really support that viewpoint, I don't think. Plenty of self-identifying Irish folks saying, "it doesn't bother me or anyone I know/it's an expression that is used in Ireland."

I do agree about anti-Irish sentiment on the forum though.

We wouldn't want to offend those etymologists would we?

I am Irish and do not find that term offensive in any way.... You most definitely are BU...

donqixote your link confirms the existence of the English pale in Ireland! In an article about the phrase “beyond the pale”

So what people are saying is

1. they accept that beyond the pale means beyond the limits of acceptability.

2. they accept that the pale existed in Ireland which Irish people lived outside of (enforced!) or, beyond the pale.

But refuse to accept that beyond the pale could be deemed offensive to Irish people. bit of a logic fail there.

You may think you’re funny flowerpot but that’s really low.

Flowerpot your strawman argument is feeble. But enjoy the potatoes.

Flowerpot I'm reporting your racist post

I’ve reported that racist post.

That type of attitude mnhq is exactly the anti Irish sentiment that needs dealt with on here. And dealt with robustly.

I am all for not trying to offend people but we do seem to be getting to the point when we won't be able to say anything for fear of offence. In the part of this thread I have read there are three phrases mentioned that are common usage that we shouldn't be saying. We need to take a step back I think and stop getting offended by things when no offence is intended. The intent is what is important.

YABU

It's an indicator of how ridiculous this post is & how some people can be.

I'm Irish, I find humour in many things & always will do. It's a phrase, with a background at least 90% of people on here didn't know. But oh no, someone couldn't simply explain it, they had to throw in the 'I'm offended' phrase. Be offended, it's a choice or don't be, that's also a choice just don't go telling people what they should & shouldn't find offensive because that's called dictatorship. It's 2018 people, the world has moved on.

Your sense of humour leaves a lot to be desired Flowerpot

donqixote your link confirms the existence of the English pale in Ireland! In an article about the phrase “beyond the pale”

I didn't dispute that meaning existed. I mentioned it in my post. I don't think anyone believes the Pale in Ireland didn't exist.

The point PPs have made is that the phrase 'beyond the pale' does not appear to have the etymological origins the OP ascribes to it. The idea that it comes from the Irish Pale (or at least the geographic term in general) is common on the internet, but has no sources. There seems to be quite a lot of evidence that it is from the more recent phrase 'beyond the pale of...'

But refuse to accept that beyond the pale could be deemed offensive to Irish people.

Lots of things could be deemed offensive to lots of people. I'm amazed that someone with your username would think 'someone might be upset' should be the threshold for policing language.