To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

Ah ok. Maybe to avoid any confusion Ireland should be referred to as Eire seeing as that is its proper name as far as I know.

Ignorance abounds on all sides.

Wazznme says "English parliament and English monarchy who tortured us for 800 years"

Prior to 1603 - yes it was the English after 1603 it was a Scottish monarch. There is a strong argument when looking at the bloodline of the royal family that many nations are represented but the English least of all. Princess Diana was the first English blood in the royal family for several generations. But really who cares?

Parliament was English until 1707 act after that it was a English and Scottish. After that 1801 Ireland joined in.

Perverse that’ll be Ireland, since you’re typing in English. Éire is the name if you are using Gaelic, which we are not here,, therefore it’s Ireland. Which is not in the UK.

That’s because it does.

Etymologically, the idiom almost certainly doesn’t derive from the historical use in Ireland.

Both the idiom and the Irish Pale derive from the same source: the world pale to mean fence or boundary, which was in common use in its literal sense in England much later. Early uses of the idiom in printed works support this - they tend to put it in context (beyond the pale of x or y), which doesn’t make sense if the idiom had derived from the Irish Pale.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state

Maybe to avoid any confusion Ireland should be referred to as Eire seeing as that is its proper name as far as I know.

My auto correct corrected gaelige to Gaelic. And then to gaslight. Freudian or something

Jassy, the terms relates to Ireland. It also relates to France and to Russia. And probably other places I’m unaware of.

It seems there are those on here that are going to be perpetually offended no matter what yet can say anglophobic comments and that's ok. Beyond the pale indeed.

And then to gaslight. Freudian or something

Indeed!

I think it is offensive to use a phrase that describes the putting of anyone outside a boundary. It’s a phrase whose roots are in exclusion, othering. Whether inside as in the Russian pale or outside as in the Irish.

When unacceptable is another word or not allowed why use a phrase that others anyone?

Ireland is Ireland. It's simply Ireland. When I say I'm from Ireland, you don't need to ask whether that's the North or South. I'm from Ireland. Northern Ireland is not Ireland. It is owned and governed by British. It is not Ireland.

Anglophobic comments are not ok. Who said they were? I reported wazz comment when it appeared. The fact it’s still there is down to HQ. Maybe they’re applying the same policy to it as they’ve been doing with the anti Irish comments.

Verbeena says Ireland, not Northern Ireland. This is incorrect

Sorry, I stand corrected, I meant Northern Ireland

Ireland is Ireland. It's simply Ireland. When I say I'm from Ireland, you don't need to ask whether that's the North or South. I'm from Ireland. Northern Ireland is not Ireland. It is owned and governed by British. It is not Ireland.

I have Irish friends who would take offence to that as consider themselves Irish and don't need to refer to either north or south either. Just Ireland and Irish.

It will be a long day in hell before it becomes the United Kingdom of England Scotland Wales and Ireland

Perverse the terms of the GFA would disagree with your friends. Like it or not the divisions on the island have been recognised in the interests of moving forward jointly to peace It’s interesting that your friends are so regressive.

Jassy, the terms relates to Ireland. It also relates to France and to Russia. And probably other places I’m unaware of.

Yes, the word pale does relate to Ireland. And Russia. Contemporaneously it was also used as interchangeable with fence or boundary, and the best evidence I’ve seen is that the idiom ‘beyond the pale’ derived from the latter usage, not the former (and so is not rooted in racist ideas about Irish people). This is particularly supported by the way the idiom developed in Georgian and Victorian times.

Can you point me to evidence that supports the idea that the idiom ‘beyond the pale’ derives from the Irish Pale? As I’ve said, I’m open to it, but all I’ve read points in a different direction.

Jassy there have been loads of references posted already

Evidence is, that as an Irish person it grates being reminded of the mere existence of The Pale

It’s a phrase whose roots are in exclusion, othering. Whether inside as in the Russian pale or outside as in the Irish.

Or neither. It’s definitely not derived from the Russian Pale. And probably not from the Irish.

As I said much earlier in this thread, I’m open to the idea that misconceptions about the origin of the phrase cause sufficient hurt to say ‘hey, let’s not use it’. But that’s not the argument being put forward here - rather, it’s that the phrase has racist origins. Which isn’t supported by the facts.

Maybe to avoid any confusion Ireland should be referred to as Eire seeing as that is its proper name as far as I know.

You're wrong. When you're speaking English, the proper name is Ireland. Only when you're speaking Irish is the proper name Éire.

Use of the name Eire (without the fada - which in Irish is a word that means "burden") in the English language was a politically provocative position by UK governments from 1938 onwards (the Eire Act) because the UK refused to accept the name Ireland as the name of the state (as the 1937 Irish constitution stated). Eire was a name imposed externally on Ireland by the UK because the UK were unwilling to acknowledge the terms of the constitution of Ireland as a sovereign state. It was only after the Good Friday Agreement that the UK agreed to drop the provocation and call the state by its actual name: Ireland.

Not that I'm accusing the pp of faux-naive goady fuckery, but the above point has been explained over and over and over again on Irish threads on MN. I explain it again here for the lurkers. A simple google of Ireland / Eire would give the right answer, including its own wiki page.

Interesting how it keeps coming up though, isn't it?

Jassy there have been loads of references posted already

I haven’t seen a single thing on this thread (or elsewhere) that shows the emergence of the idiom coming from the Irish Pale (it would be bloody odd if it had, given timings, but I’m open to it).

Evidence is, that as an Irish person it grates being reminded of the mere existence of The Pale

And that’s fair enough. Why not advance the argument on that basis, rather than claiming as fact something that isn’t (ie that the idiom is racist in origin?)

@MarDhea I had no idea about that do thank you for explaining. I've not been in any Irish threads before this one. I've seen Eire used in addresses so thought that must be correct. I apologise.

The fact is for us Irish, The Pale was an occupied territory of our country. The British gave it that name. We didn't. We probably had a few choice words for it as Gaeilge at the time. But it was our country. There wasn't a pale. It was our country. But the British defined it as theirs. It's not theirs and never will be. They have Northern Ireland.