To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

"Beyond the Pale" for most of us in England refers back to an area of Russia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_of_Settlement

If the Irish have decided to be insulted by it may be they just need to realise most of us who use it as part of a figure of speech in no sense mean any Irish connotation.

Lots of English people and people from NI have used "Eire and Northern Ireland" to distinguish the two.

Most of us in England are not trying to insult the irish all the time by any means. You are some of our closet neighbours, many of us like I do have a lot of Irish ancestory and we mean you no harm. Let us all just try to get along with each other, English or Irish, Catholic, Protestant or atheist.

@LemonTT makes this excellent point:

A lot of Irish people don’t take offence because they see the historical context as referencing how difficult the celts were to conquer and control as a people, by what would have then been the Normans. It’s later usage to reference the Anglo Protestant enclave around Dublin again reflects the fact that Irish catholics retained their identity and religion. It’s one they are proud of, not ashamed of.

You can choose to be offended by the use of a phrase that has wider historical and linguistic meaning. Or you choose to understand you are putting a negative twist on one specific meaning.

You are making several choices that means you are offended. Many people choose to interpret the phrase using equally valid meanings. Others who accept your specific meaning interpret it differently.

All these people are not offended in the least.

The Pale was an occupied territory of our country. The British gave it that name

But the point is a pale was simply what a settlement was called. It's like saying they called it a settlement, or a chair a chair. That's simply the name of an area which has a specific jurisdiction. There were many many pales. It's simply a noun. It wasn't unique to the Irish.

It's like taking offence at the word territory, or settlement, or area. It was simply the noun in use at the time. No one gave it that name. Simply that's what an area under a specific jurisdiction was called. Across the world.

Thank you for apologising Perverse. I linked to the Wikipedia page which is about the name of the state, you might find it an interesting read, since you are interested in history.

So what I’m learning here is that’s offence isn’t a real thing, and no post on Mumsnet should ever be deleted because someone finds it offensive. Because they’re just making up offence when they could just choose not to be. Got ya. Updated guidelines on their way I’m sure.

I can see why you might be offended if you are Irish. Equally, as has been explained , The Pale isn't specific to Ireland.

I had no idea of the origin actually and am usually quite clued up on these things.

What posters are saying is 'pale' is a noun with many meanings. You are looking at one of it's uses, and choosing a negative interpretation at that. Some Irish people use the term with pride - but your choice to be offended overrides their choice to use the term with pride?

To try to stop other people using the phrases in that context is unreasonable.

You are looking at one of it's uses, and choosing a negative interpretation at that.

No. Both the pale itself and the phrase ARE negative! The pale was certainly not just a nice place with nice shops that the Irish could take a day trip to.

It’s a fact that my grandparents lived in the Russian Pale of Settlement in Lithuania before they emigrated to the UK but I just don’t see ‘beyond the pale’ as either an insult or racism. It refers to a time in history where Jews were segregated but has passed into every day speech as have thousands of other terms in our language. ‘Taking the piss’ comes from the lowest and unpleasantest jobs in woolen mills etc. The meaning of ‘beyond the pale’ is not used to insult Irish or Jewish people, just as ‘taking the piss’ isn’t used to insult people with unpleasant jobs. There are many insults levelled at both Irish and Jewish people, but I honestly don’t see this as one of them.

YABU. It’s tedious how enjoyable people find taking offence - especially on behalf of others

Have you read LemonTT's excellent post from 10:17 @IStandWithPosie ?

You really should, I reposted a section of it. She clearly explains a different interpretation. In fact lots of posters are explaining many different historical uses of the term pale.

You are choosing one interpretation of one use of the word.

Although, you do seem to read what you want in a post. I have never, said or implied that that a Pale of Settlement was a fun place to be, I am fully aware of the horrors involved. My point was that Lemon clearly explained the Irish Pales indicate how difficult the Irish were to conquer and some see this as something to be proud of. Resistance movements are often celebrated.

Absolutely right, RyelandSheep. I think it's really fishing around for offence to see it as racist and insulting.

No. Both the pale itself and the phrase ARE negative! The pale was certainly not just a nice place with nice shops that the Irish could take a day trip to.

The pale itself was racist. The phrase does not appear to have racist origins but, as many Irish people think the link is too close regardless, it would be reasonable to try to avoid the phrase.

Better? Certainly more factual.

What next, is someone going to be offended by Swashbuckle for glorifying c18th piracy?

My grandma did mention that once. She said she wasn't sure it was really an appropriate theme for a kids TV show. Idk if it's because my grandfather was a naval man or something. I thought she must be joking but she wasn't!

And yes to a point pages and pages ago who said "beyond the pale" makes them think of someone clutching their pearls and turning paler and paler as they faint. That's the image I always had too.

IStandWithPosie No, offence is a real thing but, certain specifics that offend everyone aside, it can also be a very personally niche thing so it's hard to legislate for every possible thing that might offend only one or two individuals.

You claim you are offended by the use of this phrase because you associate it with only one of several possible meanings, choosing to see it as a slur on one particular marginalized community because of what you perceive as some hidden anti-Irish sentiment here. Either you are sincere and overthinking this or you are purposefully contriving to bring about a divide. I'll give you the benefit and assume the former.

In common usage, this phrase is not referencing what you say it references to you except in the loosest sense; your reference point is only one among many long-accepted associations and the fact you have to explain and highlight the history of the phrase appropriating it only to your particular agenda is telling to me as a fellow person of Irish descent.

Other Irish people have said they are not offended and seem to recognize there is a massive grey area here with no malice aforethought, but it appears you are - perhaps deliberately - choosing to ignore that in your zeal to police language so as to validate your sense of victimhood. That sense of historic victimhood is not unwarranted for Irish people but, I think, in this instance it's definitely misplaced.

there is a massive grey area here with no malice aforethought this is the precise reason why the phrase should be removed. No one is saying that MN used it with malicious intent but that because there are various interpretations which can be given to it, it would be better to replace it with a similar phrase which doesn't offend anyone.

Language evolves with us as we as a society (alledgedly) evolve. You dont see GropeCunt Lane any more as one of those words is now deemed unfit for common usage in society particularly when twinned with the other.

Whatever the origins, theres no doubt the phrase in question was adopted as a slight/slur to one group of people at some stage in history. If there are still people who find it offensive, due to history, culture or nationality then why would anyone WANT to use it given it has the potential to cause offence?

I want to shout cuntingm***fucking bollocks when ever a particular colleague opens her mouth - but I don't. Its impolite and will cause offence. I do use that exact phrase when venting to my partner about said colleagues crap - out of the earshot of others - because he will most certainly not be offended by my language choices. On an open forum, such as in the mumsnet guidelines there is zero need for such a phrase that could potentially cause offence.

Context is key in this case, I think. If you arent offended - that's great! but it doesnt need to be used, especially as it has the potential and capacity to cause upset.

Slightly off topic it’s interesting that there isn’t as far as I’m aware a collective word for people from the United Kingdom?

Of course there’s British but iirc Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom but not Great Britain. So what should we call ourselves?

Citizens of the United Kingdom?

United kingdomers?

When society evolves and their is a consensus like with Gropcunt lane - although it did make me smile - then fine.

However, it is clear there is no consensus. Some Irish people use the term as a badge of pride, some are offended, some simply don't care.

Many Jewish people use the term and no one with a Jewish background has come on this thread and been offended.

It is a very niche offence and I think to castigate someone or an organisation for an offence this specific is a bit silly.

Objecting to beyond the Pale (the russian reference ) is like objecting to Baa baa black sheep. People just need to learn how to keep calm and not get offended by things left right and centre.We need much less censorship, not more.

British generally refers to all the citizens of the UK. British passport, etc etc.

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beyond%20the%20pale

it would be better to replace it with a similar phrase which doesn't offend anyone

Is there such a thing? Because if we get to thr stage people can simply attritbute a meaning to something, eradicate history, then randomly accuse people of being racist for using it based on their definition and then we all have to stop using it, then pretty much every part of our language could offend someone, becayse they can attribute any meaning they wish to it, ignore history, and then decide the general population should stop using it.

It's illogical. Much better to point out the real history and origin of the word, the popular intent of the phrase to thr person involved.

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beyond_the_pale