To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

[changehere]

Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

But it’s all a bit messier than that bluntness isn’t it ? If we think about the ‘n’ word it as a long history and the etymology includes pure descriptive usage from various words for black. We now understand that the usage has become discriminatory (if it ever historically wasn’t) and it is pretty much universally accepted that it is racist. However some black people use it and have ‘claimed it’. Does that mean we should all now use it (irrespective of our motive - ie we could use it as a descriptor and ignore those who find it deeply offensive ( to the extent that to use it is a criminal offence) ??

Having written that I’m sure there may be problems with my logic (I did have a very late night last night!) but I think there’s something in it.

In case of any doubt at all my question above was rhetorical - my own answer is a resounding ‘no’.

Blimey there are a lot of threads popping up that seem to serve no purpose other than to sow seeds of discontent between in Anglo-Irish discord. At a particularly sensitive time for Anglo-Irish politics because of Brexit.

Ironic that it turns out that this might be about a phrase of Russian origin. Heyho and wave to the factory workers.

A lot of Irish people don’t take offence because they see the historical context as referencing how difficult the celts were to conquer and control as a people, by what would have then been the Normans. It’s later usage to reference the Anglo Protestant enclave around Dublin again reflects the fact that Irish catholics retained their identity and religion. It’s one they are proud of, not ashamed of.

So for a lot of Irish people the phrase highlights a strong and positive national characteristic. That they are not so easily conquered or cowered and will rebel against foreign invasion. Even if it takes 100’s of years.

It is a facet of Anglo Irish politics that gave rise to a lot of words and phrases, like boycott and Gerrymandering. To eradicate them would be to negate important parts of a shared history that give rise to learning and advancement. It also tells us a lot about how language develops and changes over time.

Really OP, you need to put your energy into actually trying to understand more about Irish history and the diversity it gave rise to. Because that diversity exists and is recognised by all the people who live there. There are people Anglo Irish heritage who are Protestant. There are Scottish Ulster people who are largely Presbyterian and there are Irish catholics. Add a lot of ethnic minorities whilst you are at it. It is a nation of people who never have and never will want to be seen as simply passive victims of colonialism. Mainly because they weren’t, as the phrase demonstrates.

Oh, btw @changehere the only time I have heard the phrase used and explained in reference to Irish people being uncouth or uncivilised is by you. When explained by Irish historians in Ireland, it is in the context of non victimhood and the strength of Irish culture and resistance.

Your post is offensive by your own standards.

It came from earlier English and from laws passed in the late medieval period binding the English in the 'four obedient shires' on the east coast of Ireland most closely bound to England.

It almost certainly didn’t. Sigh.

i notice how the op keeps referring to the 'English' there is no country called England has not been for hundreds of years. i find that intresting

There are many manifestations. Names like Conor and Liam are considered naughty boy names that sentence is just as stupid as what hopkins said about children names and untrue.

@confussssed England isn't a country? How do you work that one out?

England isn't a country? I've heard it all now lol

I mean I know knowledge can be lacking in some English people, but that takes the biscuit!

BTW, we usually refer to England as it was the English parliament and English monarchy who tortured us for 800 years. Not the Scottish or Welsh. Love the scene from Brave heart where the Irish are the foot soldiers for England and they just join the other side lol

i notice how the op keeps referring to the 'English' there is no country called England has not been for hundreds of years. i find that interesting

Really?!!

@confussssed England isn't a country? How do you work that one out?no there is a country called the United Kingdom Of Great Britain And northern Ireland.
country definition a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory. there is no government of England

I mean I know knowledge can be lacking in some English people, but that takes the biscuit! racist comment you will get away with it because you said English if you said any other group of people you would be condemned widely

confusssssed ??

Wazznme some English people are lacking in knowledge are they? Yet Irish people being called thick is offensive? Hmmm.

To eradicate them would be to negate important parts of a shared history nobody wants words eradicated, they just feel the phrase has no place in the Talk Guidlines on here

@wazznme www.britannica.com/topic/list-of-countries-1993160 i dont see England on the list

i notice how the op keeps referring to the 'English' there is no country called England has not been for hundreds of years. i find that intresting

Yes, there is. OK, it's collectively known as the United Kingdom as there's several countries, but of course it's a country in its own right!
England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland....

Does this mean that the next time Ireland are playing England in soccer we can get them disqualified because they're not a country?

People get offended by fake origins of terms and phrases all the time, either through ignorance or others deliberately stirring. (There have been many examples on this thread - but to add my own to the pile I was told by some americans that talking about 'tribes' was cultural appropriation unless you were talking about native americans. They apparently had no knowledge of all the other tribes previously or currently existing in the world!)

I'm not going to stop using words and phrases because somebody who doesn't know what they are talking about thinks it has an offensive meaning. I will stop using a phrase when I learn a genuinely offensive origin (I grew up saying 'off the reservation' because I grew up in a place where a 'reservation' was a nature reserve and had no idea there were people on reservations in the US!).

I have to say I have never seen any evidence that 'beyond the pale' targets the Irish, just assertions with no backup, whereas those claiming it's origins go to palings and fences can often cite references.

That said it's sufficiently contested that I choose not to use it, but I wouldn't judge anyone else for using it.

@SputnikBear s post below makes alot of sense, interesting that it hasn't been rebutted. Someone copied and paste a blog in rebuttal but that smacks of not being able to defend yourself why it's offensive.

YABU for assuming that “beyond the pale” refers to the Irish Pale. Pale comes from the Latin pālus meaning 'stake'; it means a stake fence and the area inside it. So “beyond the pale” simply means "outside the boundary".

The first use of the phrase was around the 17th century, which is very late if it refers to the Irish Pale, which was in the Middle Ages starting around 1450. The phrase could equally originate from the English Pale of Calais in France. And there have been a number of other Pales, such as the Pale of Russia.

The sovereign state of the United Kingdom is made up of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. This is not difficult.

I mean I know knowledge can be lacking in some English people, but that takes the biscuit!

That's beyond the pale unacceptable.

Does this mean that the next time Ireland are playing England in soccer we can get them disqualified because they're not a country?

i guess you think the us virgin islands is a country on that basis.

The sovereign state of the United Kingdom is made up of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. This is not difficult.
as i said a country is a nation with its own government there is no government of England

Please don't add Ireland as one of your dominions making up your Kingdom. That would be Northern Ireland.