To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

I am Irish. I have had sneery anti-Irish comments directed towards me personally on MN and I've witnessed it being directed at other posters and at Irish culture more broadly.So do you want to gaslight me again and tell me that my experiences didn't happen?

Can you give me significant examples of this MarDhea?

Yes. There was thread very recently where we were told that the haitch promounciation was wrong and that we were thick for using it. That was in the last couple of months.

awaits post telling giant she is wrong, that didn’t happen, it’s nothing to do with Ireland and all to do with just pronouncing things correctly.

There is definitely bigotry towards Irish people on mumsnet. And you can double that if you are talking about the difficult folk on N Ireland, not the cute and cuddly friendly Irish from South and West of the border.

What do you mean Treaclesoda?

*pronounciation

TBH "pale" in itself is an odd choice of word when discussing racist language.

That's entirely coincidental, though. The meaning of pale with respect to colour is completely separate from its meaning with respect to a boundary fence. 'Beyond the pale' really, really doesn't have anything to do with colour.

What I meant is that people from Ireland tend to be viewed, albeit patronisingly, as loveable and funny and friendly and jovial, and all the other lovely things that are associated with Ireland.

If you're from N Ireland however, then you're a knuckle dragging bigot, a drain on the resources of good hard working UK tax payers, you can't speak the English language properly, and you spend your spare time fighting your neighbours, and you're a terrorist sympathiser. And if you're from a unionist background you get to be a homophobe and not very bright as well. When it comes to how we appear to be perceived, there doesn't seem to be much in between...

I've never heard any of that about Irish people!

Perverse you should get on some of the Brexit threads.

The one about the Canada solution that stood for over a week, despite being reported numerous times, was exceedingly illuminating.

Are you kidding me Giantbanger?

Of course saying 'haitch' rather than 'aitch' is okay.

It's not only Irish people that pronounce 'H' that way. Many people in Britain do too.

It's like people of Caribbean descent saying 'arksed' instead of 'asked'. That is also okay.

See also 'gotten'

Limited. Not on that thread. We were told straight out it was wrong and we were thick.

Aitch, we were always taught, was the correct pronunciation and is in the English dictionary as such. Never heard of it being an Irish thing to say haitch.

In Northern Ireland it marks your cultural background. Aitch vs haitch.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11642588

YANBU OP. I think it would be entirely reasonable for Mumsnet to amend the wording.

TreacleSoda. I understand it is difficult for you. But it is not unique. I am the Catholic child of an Irish father and an English mother. I've worked it out

'Aks' inevitably makes it onto the 'pronunciations/spellings you can't stand' threads, alongside 'haitch'. And it's invariably decried as teeth-itching and 'incorrect'.

I wouldn't say it's difficult for me, but I was just expanding on my earlier comment, that I do think anti Irish sentiment exists, and I think there is a particular type of anti Irish sentiment directed towards those who are from N Ireland. Mind you, the public face of N Ireland, in the form of our politicians, doesn't paint a picture of a nation of nice friendly people, I get that. It's more that people are willing to take that at face value and not look behind all that and think 'WHY is it like that?'

Limited. Not on that thread. We were told straight out it was wrong and we were thick

That's very bad. What was the direct reference to you being wrong and thick? If you can link i'd definitely back you up

You're wrong, Anasnake. You are not taking into account the full phrase 'beyond the Pale' and the meaning of that phrase, which is 'something that is unacceptable'. The phrase and the meaning didn't come to the English language from Russian or Yiddish. It came from earlier English and from laws passed in the late medieval period binding the English in the 'four obedient shires' on the east coast of Ireland most closely bound to England.

As a physical entity the Pale was a massive ditch with accompanying fortifications, many of which are still standing today (though ruined) separating the civilised English from the wild Irish who lived 'beyond the Pale'.

In terms of Irish history, it denoted the hierarchical concept of the two nations existing on the island, and this meaning is how it is currently used in Northern Ireland by those Unionists who look down their noses at all things Irish and Catholic.

it is currently used in Northern Ireland by those Unionists who look down their noses at all things Irish and Catholic.

Here we go. Know that for a fact do you?

Why yes, I do.

I am, regrettably, very familiar with the type of unionist you refer to, living where I do, and I've never actually heard someone use the term 'beyond the pale' in real life. I always associate it with the song out of the Joseph musical, because that's where I first heard it. I'm not going to claim that no one in N Ireland has ever said it, but I don't think it's in common usage.

Now its going to turn into a Unionist bashing thread. How lovely

But the phrase is regularly used in Ireland by Irish people casually and I've never heard anyone complain about it.

I know and accept the origin of the phrase, but I disagree strongly with the assertion that almost all Irish people find it offensive, its so commonly used and innocuous.
It gets trotted out in discussion on sports regularly with regards to either players or fans actions. I'm baffled to see Irish people on here saying that they find it offensive or claim that this is an almost universal position in Ireland, I've just never seen it.

If people have never before heard that a certain phrase is offensive then they need to be cut some slack, but if they have been told, then why would they continue to say it?

Ok. Following that logic I find the word cunt offensive and mysogynistic towards women. A recent thread shows some agree, some disagree. Like this thread.

So I'm assuming now everyone has to stop saying cunt?