To think flying off on holidays is immoral?

[RedTriangle]

Anyone planning to fly off on holidays?

“Every round-trip ticket on flights from New York to London, keep in mind, costs the Arctic three more square meters of ice”
nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html

I live near an airport and there is a steady stream of planes landing and taking off. It feels ominous now in light of the recent WWF report talking about life on earth being wiped out.

There are posts on mumsnet on the section about long haul travel where people are talking about flying off with their families to Thailand or Mexico etc not thinking or not caring about the impact! Future generations won’t be jetting off and living lives like this as we will have destroyed the planet and they will be scrambling to survive.

My parents have booked a weekend in Spain! They regularly do this and they will be long gone while future people pay a terrible price.

Red triangle you seem very anxious. I don't want to upset/patronise you or suggest you have no need to be concerned. But I was wondering if you might feel better if you could talk to someone, maybe your Gp, about why you feel so anxious.

Red triangle you seem very anxious. I don't want to upset/patronise you or suggest you have no need to be concerned. But I was wondering if you might feel better if you could talk to someone, maybe your Gp, about why you feel so anxious.

If you don't want to patronise someone then don't. Just saying it doesn't make it any different.

BR , I will keep saying this on this thread whenever anyone suggests Red sees her GP: Red is most likely not in need of medical attention. Red knows, instinctively, like the mammal she is, that the planet that sustains her is in grave peril, and so she responds in the most natural way possible, she feels anxious. Real change and activism is born out of such intrinsic motivation. It should not be medicated away, but rather harnessed and directed into making a difference.

Hear hear! Hear her!

Most activities we do, have some environmental impact and totally agree we can lessen the short term damage with our choices, but by far the most devastating impact is exponential population growth, or to be blunt having more than 2 children.

On the subject of air travel you may enjoy a quote from Rosamund McDougall, Optimum Population Trust.

"People think it's all about eco-nappies and hand-me-downs, but it's not quite as simple as that," she says. "You've got to consider the environmental impact across the 80 years that each of these babies is likely to live. We've calculated that each UK child is going to cost the world the equivalent of 620 return flights between London and New York across a lifetime."

And then, of course, many of these children will have children of their own.

I'm not proposing "china style limits", but we should stop thinking it's about plastic straws.

So my response to the OP, is enjoy the holiday, but take precautions!

WithAFaeryHandInHand, the consumption of cheap chocolate does more damage than people wanting themed pj's.

Or rather cheap Cocoa Beans.

Dbank, what about children from other Countries?

They are close to strategies to eradicate Maleria, TB etc, but it will take generations to persuade those who can least sustain families, to not have lots of children.

Most thinking people are anxious about the state of the world and our impact on it. But to be so anxious to regret having much loved children because of their impact on the world seems beyond a reasonable level of anxiety
I did not suggest any medication simply that perhaps red triangle might feel more able to cope with her worries if she could talk with someone about her very real concerns.
Attacking suggestions to red triangle does not help her.

Dbank, what about children from other Countries?

Their environmental impact will vary greatly.

"" Their environmental impact will vary greatly.""

But you can't absolutely state if its going to be less. Obviously those that die in childhood, won't have an impact. But they will stop dying in childhood, with all the breakthroughs in treatments and Charities and what then?

the consumption of cheap chocolate does more damage than people wanting themed pj's.

Or rather cheap Cocoa Beans.

Good to know. So? There are a lot of things more damaging than x, y or z. That doesn’t mean I’m going to freely do x, y or z though.

Statistically birth rates drop as infant mortality drops.

That’s to say population isn’t a problem. It absolutely is. As has already been discussed at length on this thread and every other climate change thread on Mumsnet. Rightly so. It’s a big issue.

But telling people from poorer nations to stop having babies, or not to access medical services which will prevent them dying in infancy, because we can’t stop stuffing “big juicy” steaks down our overfed throats and flying long haul to lie on a beach “cos I’m living life to the max” is frankly abhorrent to me.

That’s NOT to say I mean^^

Looking at the most extreme case (America), but we aren’t far off:

www.scientificamerican.com/article/american-consumption-habits/

On average, one American consumes as much energy as

2 Japanese,

6 Mexicans,

13 Chinese,

31 Indians,

128 Bangladeshis,

307 Tanzanians

370 Ethiopians

^^from www.internationalbusinessguide.org/hungry-planet/

We have 12 years to save the world - fact!

Take a look at the post at 20.48 yesterday ... it's all been said before and somehow we're still here

I think your reaction of feeling anxious is a healthy one, and I can really relate to your dilemmas. I'm torn myself if I can fly to join my elderly parents on their holidays on the Canary Islands. After recent climate crisis and extinction warnings from scientists I can not carry on with business as usual. If anyone here is not anxious about what the future holds, they're not paying attention! This is not a case for the GP, this is a case of calling for a climate emergency response from governments (I believe initiatives exist who call for such measures: www.theclimatemobilization.org/blog/2018/10/31/oakland-ca-declares-climate-emergency). And I'm sure the technologies for cleaner transport already exist. And yes, in the meantime, I may not be able to fly to see my old folks for a nice trip in the sun with the family :-(

But to be so anxious to regret having much loved children because of their impact on the world seems beyond a reasonable level of anxiety

I agree.

I also tend to agree with that polly, but I felt the same as the op a few years ago. Not that I regretted having them just because of their impact on the planet, but also because I thought it was such a gloomy time to be alive... quite possible one of the last generations of humans on earth.

Now I see things differently. I’m trying to raise my two dcs to be as aware as possible of the impact they make on the planet and what they can do to change things. I’m glad they’re around of course, as they are the people I love most on the planet, but also because I hope they will be good people, who do something good for the planet and humanity.

People have said on here, that they see no point in making any efforts to protect the planet, because the damage is done. If you haven’t noticed , I vehemently disagree with that.

I don’t disagree that we have done untold, terrible and most likely irreversible damage. But, that does not mean a free for all, “cos we’re doomed anyway”.

I hope my dcs feel the same and do what they can to A) protect what we can of the planet, by helping to clean up some of the mess we’ve made before we die out and B) make the world as pleasant a place as possible for the humans who do live here until we die out. There are a million possible ways they could do this. I just hope they feel like trying.

I absolutely agree that people should think about their flying and am shocked at the outcry your post seems to have caused. You aren’t saying that no one should ever fly just that we should think about the environmental impact of our choices. As a family we were intending to have two foreign holidays this year (my husband is from India so we visit from time to time) but have decided to limit it to one foreign trip instead, probably Europe, and save India for another year. We don’t think anything like enough about all of our consumer choices (including not buying things!) and need to do more. I’m worried too!

I love the post I just saw on FB. Someone preaching that we must not use wrapping paper as it can't be recycled and instead use brown paper and then put ribbons and stickers on them for decoration. Right, because me making that change will magically save the planet and stop Antarctica melting. It won't.

But if the majority of women switched to mooncups and shampoo bars it probably would

Who said you making that one change would stop the Antarctic melting clarita?

If lots of people make lots of small and some significant changes though, we could make things slightly better. That’s the point. Not to suddenly halt climate change, but to leave a not-as-bad mess behind. Or maybe we could make the planet more pleasant and habitable for everyone. The damage is already effecting people right now. Why would you make it worse for shiny wrapping paper? Even if it’s only very slightly worse?

If you are one of those who decided that you cba you’ll find any excuse not to do anything. There’s no point cos we’re all doomed. What’s that? Oh yeah maybe even if we’re doomed, a decent person might want to prevent causing more damage than is necessary. Throwing in the towel because you don’t think you ca immediately stop the Antarctic thawing, is akin to shitty tenants trashing the flat because they’re about to leave anyway and they’ve already lost their deposit.

Sorry for typos.

You need to look at your whole carbon footprint rather than just flying.

www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx

WithAFaeryHandInHand I already stated earlier in the thread that we can't stop this happening. There are tons of power plants around the world, belching out tons of pollution, just to create the products that we are told to recycle or not even use. Tons of animals every day are slaughtered for food, and yet we are told not to eat it.

Everyone is looking at the wrong end of the chain. You want us to recycle plastics and tin cans, not eat as many animal products or fly as much right? Those products and services will still be made and ran despite this.

What you need to look at is the beginning of the chain, not the end outcome of the product. By the time it's made its too late. The negative effect of pollution is greater from the product being made than the positive effect of us then recycling it. You need to stop plastics being made entirely, stop as many flights happening, increase greener transport like electric or better public transport. And to save the planet, you needed to do all of that years ago if not decades ago.

Doing it now would slow it down yes. But unless you have the capability to force 7 billion people to do as they are told, you're onto a loser there. It won't happen. And recycling is not helping, it's not a big enough step.