To think flying off on holidays is immoral?

[RedTriangle]

Anyone planning to fly off on holidays?

“Every round-trip ticket on flights from New York to London, keep in mind, costs the Arctic three more square meters of ice”
nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html

I live near an airport and there is a steady stream of planes landing and taking off. It feels ominous now in light of the recent WWF report talking about life on earth being wiped out.

There are posts on mumsnet on the section about long haul travel where people are talking about flying off with their families to Thailand or Mexico etc not thinking or not caring about the impact! Future generations won’t be jetting off and living lives like this as we will have destroyed the planet and they will be scrambling to survive.

My parents have booked a weekend in Spain! They regularly do this and they will be long gone while future people pay a terrible price.

It is depressing. Especially since we’ve tied ourselves up with the ruination of the planet via our own political system.

Things do change slightly and slowly, although often trumped by further consumption. But mostly I hope those developments mentioned below kick in soon.

Maybe it’s better that we don’t ask people to think of others - people don’t care - but to think of their own children. Although still a stretch people live in the present. But that act of love could be I didn’t buy it.

I mean I buy stuff so definitely not exempt although some seems pointless - do you keep the Christmas bedding for next year or discard it?

bogstandard

So much I agree with on your post. I tend to agree that we won’t stop climate change and the end of humanity. It was always a given that we’d die out, like every other species does eventually.

And I also agree that we should live our best lives, whatever that means to us.

I’ve said numerous times on here, we consume many times more in this country than people in developing parts of the world. I do not see anyone living in the uk as having a “modest” existence at all.

But, do people saying “it’s done now, so I’m living life to the Max”, buying special bedding and pyjamas to use over Christmas, or eating excessive quantities of meat and dairy and flying long haul so they can lounge on a beach, doing nothing terribly ‘mind-expanding’ or useful is not helpful. Just because the damage is most likely already irreversible, or (being optimistic) very soon will be, the timescales are not set in stone. Do people not want to make the earth reasonably pleasant and habitable for as long as possible? I know, I know, we’re gunners anyway, but hear me out;

As I’ve already said, I think we do have an almost moral obligation to do this^^, seeing as we enjoy such a high standard of living in this country and the first, worst hit in this will be from poorer countries who aren’t even responsible for the damage.

To just say, “genie’s out of the bottle isn’t it? So I’m off to the Maldives three times a year to get a suntan / I’m going to buy / eat / drive as much as I wanna”, is just beyond me.

“Meh, we’re going to die out anyway, so who cares”? Well, what about whatever comes after us? Do people not feel at all that we need to clean up as much as possible before we die out?

And no, living modestly isn’t going to save the planet just like that, but changes made en masse along with advances in technology will make a difference. Not enough to return the planet to how it was pre-industrialisation. I mean, nothing short of a miracle (or maybe a huge, global disaster) would do that! But we can mitigate at least some of it. Not so we can carry on humaning, (sounds like a Barbara Windsor film ), forever, but so that we don’t leave the worst possible legacy for whatever comes after; a completely uninhabitable planet.

I also like “the act of love is that I DIDN’T buy the unnecessary shite”.

And btw, children are already effected by OUR overconsumption in the places where the crap we buy is produced. Unsustainable cotton production in some places is poisoning people’s drinking and washing water.

Buying unnecessary clothing etc is not just dangerous for the future of our children, but immediately dangerous for existing children right now.

There’s a Stacey Dooley documentary about it and I’m sure it’s available on iPlayer. Give it a watch and I’m sure most people would think twice before buying completely unnecessary and, let’s face it, probably unwanted crap.

And no, we are not gunners! Gonners I meant!

We are all arsenal fans according to autocorrect .

Faery
All we need is a paper to pick it up and we’re off.

I’m squirming a bit because I’m a holidayer to sunny climes for the beach and not much more. This is a good thread though.

not the daily mail I expect!

I think it’s a good thread too.

I think the people suggesting that the OP has anxiety or some other mental health issues because she can see the writing on the wall are themselves struggling with some major denial issues. We have 12 years to save the world - fact! If this doesn't provoke some anxiety in you I think there is an issue there. It's easy to feel hopeless in the face of it, but let's at least acknowledge the reality.

Get rid of all shops.
only eat what you can grow, pick or catch and kill yourself.
Knockdown all buildings.
Dig up roads and bases that cannot grow plants and trees.
Live in forests or caves and bushes.
Destroy all power stations
Stop generating carbon dioxide by breathing.
Do all heating and cooking over open fires.
Leave the old to fend for themselves, fewer mouths to feed.
Destroy all medicines and then the strongest will survive and the weakest can be left with the old people to try and survive.
Do this and we should survive long enough until the sun implodes and we all freeze to death in 4 billion years time and billions of us are experiencing standing room only as there are too many people on the planet.

Oh boy, I can't seem to leave this thread alone. Those saying "Enjoy it while it lasts, live to the full!" etc, don't you ever look to the future and see your kids actually suffering as a result of the choices we are making here today? Is it just ignorance, a complete lack of imagination or denial, or a bit of everything? Our kids are not going to be able to have the standard of living we enjoy now, global warming, caused by flying, amongs other things , will impact pretty much every aspect of their lives. Fact.

We could, Ated.

Or we can do reasonable adjustment to our lifestyles, tax aviation, and costume less. Not that hard.

consume less. those fewer disposable Halloween costumes won't hurt.

No need to be faciteous, Ated . As Bertrand said upthread, "Nothing brings out the worst in people like someone trying to do the right thing".

If you book with Ryanair you won't be flying anywhere! Abandoned in Rome after 8 hour delay then cancellation. Out of pocket by £1900 and they won't pay compensation. Is there somewhere on Mumsnet I can post a warning re this despicable company to warn others of how badly they treat their customers. And please, no haters I'm already devastated at losing so much money.

We could, Ated.

Or we can do reasonable adjustment to our lifestyles, tax aviation, and costume less. Not that hard

This^^.

BettyG

Chat section maybe?

Shame on the posters telling OP to get medical help for anxiety issues!!

Can people really not see that, throwing all worry aside and “living your best life”, whatever the cost - is going to affect their children’s children’s children, ad infinitum?

Lifestyles will have to change - flights will get prohibitively expensive and become the prerogative of the rich (as when aviation first began.)

And those saying that doing your individual bit for the planet and giving up or changing parts of your lifestyle is not worth it in the grand scheme of things - if we all behaved responsibly and mindfully then it would make a difference.

Change is brought about by consumer behaviour. If you stop buying disposable crap and only buy sustainably sourced etc, then the market eventually changes.
As is now happening in the dairy industry.

For the record - me and DH haven’t flown for 10 years, yet we still go abroad every year. Our young children have never been on a plane but they have travelled to several countries.
We don’t own a car and never have. We are mostly vegetarian.
We recycle and compost as much as we can.

We are bringing up our children to be aware of climate change and importance of not being wasteful.

We are not perfect and I don’t pretend to be (I still have an iPhone for example)

But trying is better than doing nothing at all.

I don't know that I chose a simpler life cos I thought it would save the planet. More like it's cheaper and I've more time for the things that mean the most to me. Selfish really.
I could just feel that a lot of my choices were about habit, keeping up with the joneses, or relentlessly chasing moments of gratification and pleasure.
And all of that was about my insecurity. It wasn't great.

But then if I got on my high horse and started condemning other people's choices, that felt like just another type of gratification - of being right, of being superior.
If I go down the road of fatalism, defeatism, 'we're all doomed' then that's yet another way of seeking certainty and claiming absolute knowledge. I'm not that clever.
If I say 'don't care, my life, I'm in it for me, fuck you, I'll take all I can' then I'm cut off from loving and being loved. That's the definition of misery to me.
In the end I could only try and be honest and laugh at myself trying to buy my way to happiness.

I don't know if we can find a way to live sustainably and peacefully together. Yes to technological solutions, yes to legislation and acting at the political level, yes to chatting to people in organisations and businesses. Definitely yes to having the courage to be kind and to try something different.

Have a lovely weekend everyone.

Omfg false! I have said that exact thing on here re seeking certainty. We’re all doomed. Job done!

Another great post.

My favourites are people who talk about population control who seem a lot less keen when it's suggested a massive cull of north Americans and Europeans would have the most impact on the overuse of resources seeing as were the people flying green beans from Kenya and ourselves to holidays and business meetings, eating meat every day, using air conditioning systems, buying and binning clothes and plastic tat every 5 minutes, filling roads with one person in each car etc etc.

I disagree that consumer choice will change it in mire than a tiny way. Capitalism us fucked in many many ways. We need a new system.

I have committed the cardinal sin of not reading the whole thread.

First two pages: OP being told that she is being silly, should go to the GP for anxiety, look at her own lifestyle before being so sanctimonious etc. etc. Last page: sense!

The planet is overpopulated. The waste and overconsumption is horrific. Our political and economic systems reward the individual over the communal. Biodiversity is being wiped out. Once it gets to a critical level, our civilisation will not be be able to survive as it is. The sixth mass extinction is underway.

It is true that everyone cherry picks part of their lifestyle to feel that they are doing their bit to help the environment. It tends to be some aspect that they would do anyway or is easy to alter. But in 99.999% of cases this "effort" is counterbalanced by some other aspect for fun or convenience that harms the environment. For example, my sister is an avid recycler but drives to work rather than use public transport because she can't get out of bed early enough. All of us are like this. Me included.

I am saying this in a totally emotionless non-judgemental factual way. Because it is fact. It doesn't matter if you only fly long-haul once very 5 years and grow your own veggies to make up for it. It is still going to damage the Earth in some way. It is simple maths.

But I don't believe that there is that much that can be done by individuals. We are basically kids in a sweet shop with proper food down in the basement at the centre of a maze. Reform of the world economic system, if not political system, is needed. Large scale co-operation between governments and business - now!

One person can deprive themselves all they want or pay for the more expensive eco alternatives in the name of the environment. They will feel good about themselves and maybe earn the right to lecture others. But without governments and business forcing major change, nothing is going to change. Despite knowing what we do about climate change and the mass extinction event happening now, humans are consuming more of the Earth's resources than ever, leading to greater production of greenhouse gases and loss of biodiversity.

Here are two links to the situation:
www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/03/stop-biodiversity-loss-or-we-could-face-our-own-extinction-warns-un

www.news.com.au/technology/science/animals/we-have-one-foot-in-the-red-zone-earth-enters-sixth-mass-extinction-event-in-halfabillion-years/news-story/0fb59428ea46a12d1c5316942a11acda

I believe once a person gets past the defensive reasoning: Well, OP are you vegetarian? So, you can't talk about long-haul flights and I will take my holiday where I please. Then, some hard soul-searching goes on and it is anxiety-making/very concerning to realise that you are living a very wasteful life, but making the sacrifices is VERY hard to do - and wouldn't make a difference anyway. My personal way of dealing with this is to not buy unnecessary crap and educate teenagers about the environment. It's far from adequate and the best that I can do at the same time, and it feels disturbing.

One person can deprive themselves all they want or pay for the more expensive eco alternatives in the name of the environment. They will feel good about themselves and maybe earn the right to lecture others. But without governments and business forcing major change, nothing is going to change.

This is the crux of it. And because our entire economic model is built around consumption and growth, it's very difficult to see how things will change.

Oh I’m with you definitely^^ and I’m not all that optimistic. But, the danger is that people see this as a reason not to do anything at all, when actually, if we all made the changes we can, we could make some difference.

We can’t undo what we’ve done, but we can make efforts to protect what we can.

Also, education is key to this.

I don’t think we should say there’s nothing I can do, I’m going all out then, too depressing.

I do think that the youngest generation can and are being exposed to better information. But only just considering how bad things are in some places.

Perhaps I am being facetious but nobody ever got anywhere by 'doing, a little bit'. I have been involved in the environmental sector since 1969 when I first read 'The Doomsday Book' and have and do look into melting of glaciers, , under ice melt water from global warming, vanishing snow and ice in the Antarctic, the cleanup of hydrocarbons/ oil spills, and the cleanup of waters contaminated by other pollutants, including sewage.
I use heat pumps and solar thermal panels for heating and hot water, heat stores for storage, solar PV panels for electricity and allow a 4-acre grassy site to grow with 1000m of wild bushes and 200 trees to flourish. However, there are too many people in the world and limited resources. Unless we populate space, Earth is doomed. Animals are poached and killed for gain or fun and because humans encroach onto their lands. We concrete over everything for roads and housing but pay no attention to what happens when plants and trees cannot match the consumption of oxygen to the absorption of carbon dioxide. In fact, when did anyone publish a paper showing the percentage of breathable oxygen at any given height in the atmosphere and what, if any loss there is per year?. We are now eating and drinking plastic but charging a few pence for each one will not make a difference. Ban all plastics and look for alternatives that can and have to be recycled or have the ability to last a long time.

A cow does on overage release between 70 and 120 kg of Methane per year. Methane is a greenhouse gas like carbon dioxide (CO2). But the negative effect on the climate of Methane is 23 times higher than the effect of CO2. Therefore the release of about 100 kg Methane per year for each cow is equivalent to about 2'300 kg CO2 per year.
Let's compare this value of 2'300 kg CO2: The same amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) is generated by burning 1'000 liters of petrol. With a car using 8 liters of petrol per 100 km, you could drive 12'500 km per year (7'800 miles per year).

cows not air planes are the problem

If you read back through the thread alet you’ll see that I don’t think many people are disputing that the damage is done and there isn’t much hope that humanity will go on for all that much longer.

But the problem with the message that “nobody got anywhere by doing a little” is that people (not you, clearly), take that as a green light to “live life to the Max” or whatever, you know, really enhancing their lives by buying pyjamas they don’t need .

And actually, small changes made en masse would make a difference. Even if not directly, by convincing industry and governments that we don’t want their disposable shite and fossil fuels any more.

For every douchebag hunting big game in Africa, there are many more people who want to do the right thing, but who maybe don’t, because they don’t know what the right thing is, or they believe there is no point. But if enough people made significant enough changes, we would make a difference. Even just talking more about it makes a difference. Butterfly effect ain’t it .

And even though we can’t save the planet for ourselves in the longterm, we can clean up a bit for whatever comes after us.

And people throwing their hands up, overconsuming, and saying “I’m living life to the Max me” is effecting people right now. It isn’t just the future generations. Poorer countries are already suffering as a result of our excess. So, even if you don’t think (and I certainly am not optimistic myself) future generations have a chance, it would still prick my conscience to not give any thought to my choices when I buy things and travel.