To think flying off on holidays is immoral?

[RedTriangle]

Anyone planning to fly off on holidays?

“Every round-trip ticket on flights from New York to London, keep in mind, costs the Arctic three more square meters of ice”
nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html

I live near an airport and there is a steady stream of planes landing and taking off. It feels ominous now in light of the recent WWF report talking about life on earth being wiped out.

There are posts on mumsnet on the section about long haul travel where people are talking about flying off with their families to Thailand or Mexico etc not thinking or not caring about the impact! Future generations won’t be jetting off and living lives like this as we will have destroyed the planet and they will be scrambling to survive.

My parents have booked a weekend in Spain! They regularly do this and they will be long gone while future people pay a terrible price.

I have read a few papers/ heard a few speakers who say flying is the single most detrimental thing to the environment ahead of meat eating, use of plastics and everything else. Apparently us feeling great about recycling does practically nothing. But OP telling people they shouldn't go to other countries... I don't know. All the modern conveniences that came into life with people discovering new things-it seems the only way out is to go backwards better travel, better cleaning products, disposable nappies and cups-what do you want people to do-give up progress? It's something I think about-what would people give up?

but it's not a hair shirt doom and gloom thing!
I and my whole family are vegetarian (and organic dairy where poss, home reared eggs)- we aren't suffering, trust me, we LOVE eating!
We have a car but use it rarely, when necessary- so DH gets health benefits of cycling to work and I use a train so avoiding traffic/parking hassles
we have fantastic holidays in the beautiful countryside in the UK
our house is cosy and comfortable (insulated as good as we can)
Our now adult DCs were raised to be critical consumers and know how to live/eat cheaply, meaning that compared to their peers they have less debt and don't feel deprived
I just don't get this 'I'll do what I want and screw everyone else, including future generations' attitude which some posters report. We (in the UK) live in the lap of luxury by any global or historical standard. If we could all cut back our consumption to what was the norm in the 70s it would be a great help. Not saying we need to eat angel delight though.

I definitely feel this way about domestic flights - there are some routes where the plane journey is genuinely so much more convenient than the alternative, like Belfast which takes a long time by ferry, or Exeter - Aberdeen or something like that, where I think it’s inevitable but London - Edinburgh? Nah - not even much quicker than the train unless you live next to the airport. I’d like most of them to be prohibited, maybe only allowed as connecting flights, and trains to be cheaper.

I agree with others that consuming less and living in a more environmentally friendly way has made me feel calmer and happier, it hasn’t felt like a hardship even though I worried it might.

In 12 days DH and I will be flying to Orlando from Gatwick, I'm 34 and only been on one short flight before and this is my dream holiday, I'm not going to feel bad about something I can't control.

If I don't take the flight someone else will so makes no difference.

Reading this thread has made me realise different people's priorities are. User talked about only buying essentials and said no body lotion, hair serum etc. To me those are both essentials. If I didn't have serum or mousse my hair would be a frizzy mess so you'll be prising those out of my cold dead hands! I'd look like a lizard without body lotion so that's another essential.

Having flown home from turkey last week I’ve been guilting myself over the flights and how much they impact on the environment and contemplated not going abroad again. However theirs so much to our consider when thinking about our carbon footprint...ie food,water,throw away clothing,cars,heating,electricity the list goes on...at the end of the day we’ve all only got one life and their has to be some enjoyment so live your life as ethically as you can but try not to get to bogged down by the things that are largely out of one persons control...peace out ✌🏾

@redtriangle I feel extremely anxious about the future. But as you said it’s too little too late. Unfortunately I think we’re doomed regardless of what we do now.
In a world of Trump denying the impact what can we do?

Op - you need to get a grip. "I have children who I love but having them is another negative effect on the planet". Are you for real? Feeling sick because you've flown on a plane before you knew about the impact? You cannot change the past, you can only change the future. So do what you feel is necessary to save the planet but please, stop beating yourself up about what you have done before or you'll make yourself insane

It might be worth taking into account the fact that we are currently coming out of a mini ice age, yes maybe a little faster than expected, but it is fact.

There is a massive industry grown up around this "green" thing and I am very suspicious of a point of view that will not allow anyone to say anything counter to it.

I remember a few years ago we watched a documentary show that was very interesting. It came to the conclusion that the greenhouse effect is partly down to the fact that we no longer produce as much pollution, therefore the sunlight is getting through the atmosphere more easily. It was previously being blocked by or reflected off the pollutant particles in the atmosphere.

I am not saying that there is not global warming, but it is mostly part of the normal warm/cold/warm/cold cycle that the earth has been going through for many thousands, if not millions of years, and a lot of greenhouse gases are being given off by natural things as diverse as volcanoes and cattle.

China emitted 9040.74 million tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions in 2015, the US 4997.50, the UK 404.7, considering how industrialised the UK is compared to China and that only just under half of Chinese live in in urban areas I don't think we are doing too badly.

Oh, and one other thing. All these people going on about saving the earth? The Earth will still be here when we are gone and the next population are making their way on the planet.

Oh, and I do do all I can to mitigate my effect, but mainly because it is cheaper.

OP you are right about the massive amount of pollution from planes. Not just from people travelling but from freight too. It’s too late to go back though I think. We’d be better off trying to develop more fuel efficient planes and cutting back in all other areas of consumption then trying to ban air travel.

It's horses for courses - I never fly anywhere but I do use the car at the drop of a hat, but then I rarely heat my house and recycle everything. Everybody does their bit in different ways and YABU to judge how people choose to do their bit.

The Earth goes through cycles. Compared to the cycle of that, I don’t believe we have much, if any, of an impact.

I recycle, but it seems pretty pointless really...I’m not convinced it’s handled properly or that it make feck all difference.

🤷🏻‍♀️

Jane maybe Chinese CO2 emissions are so high cos they're exporting $2 trillion of stuff every year, £45 billion to us. Per capita there's not much difference between China and UK.

Our jobs are based on air travel, guess we're screwing up the world, sigh.

if we all give up neat and dairy what about the farmers ?
i don’t understand how that saves the planet

if we all give up neat and dairy what about the farmers ?

They'll have to switch to growing arable crops. Or put solar farms in their fields.

YANBU at all, OP, despite the tidal wave of defensiveness on here.

But I think the defensiveness illustrates how difficult it is to expect individuals to always choose to do the right thing- sometimes we need to be made to do it.

We need a government that's going to be willing to tax the aviation industry massively, and invest that money in sustainable public transport networks.

By the way, you've got me thinking about my vice of "treating"myself to a trip abroad whenever XP takes the kids for a holiday. I flew to Italy in August because I found a cheap flight, but of course it was the middle of a heatwave and I'd have been better off opting for Dartmoor. You've pushed me into looking just that little bit harder for a train/ ferry option (both of which I find a considerably more pleasant experience than flying!) next time I go away somewhere.

There have been scaremongering weather related global warming/cooing stories for decades, none of which have come to fruition. JaneEB is correct, a whole industry has grown up around it with all the vested interests and funding associated with that.

However our over consumption, the appalling way we treat animals, pollution and waste absolutely do need to be addressed IMHO...

Some of the arguments on this thread, derailing OP's very valid concerns, just don't make sense:
"...if I didn't take the flight, someone else would",
"...if we don't go on faraway holidays, people's livelihoods will be ruined"
"...but if I stop eating meat, what about the farmers?"
What?!
If you don't take the flight, and become an advocate for not flying; if everyone who knew how detrimental flying is to the environment didn't take that flight, there would be a significant reduction in flying. It is absolutely within one's control.
We are not responsible for sustaining tourism overseas, the governments of those countries, possibly with the help of foreign aid, are responsible for sustaining the livelihoods of its citizens.
The 'poor farmers' argument doesn't stand up. People can change how they make a living, given a relatively small amount of time. We don't wring our hands about British American Tobacco who are having to rethink their business model as people are smoking less. Climate change stands to wipe out life as we know it unless we are prepared to make significant changes.
And again, OP is absolutely fine to say she fears for the future of her children. We all should. DP and I initially decided we would only have one DC in order to keep our family carbon footprint small. We ended up having two, and I still think we made a totally selfish decision, despite loving them both to bits. I feel ashamed when I think about what their lives will look like in 50 years time. They talk about having children of their own when they grow up, and I can't help but to wonder if they'll still feel able to when they can see for themselves where the planet is headed.

I agree with you OP. Our planet gets so messed up partly because of the attitudes shown by most posters on this thread, which can be summed up as “because so many other things fuck up the planet even more, what’s the point in me doing anything? It would be inconvenient anyway” And if you’re seriously concerned about these issues, they question your mental health or dismiss you as sanctimonious.

Flying is very bad for the environment, so are most other forms of transport, but with the globalisation and families dispersed across the world travelling will continue - that’s one reason why the rate of environmental damage has increased so rapidly in recent decades.

I think some solution is not in banning air travel / plastic / palm oil etc etc but in finding more energy efficient / biodegradable / sustainable alternatives because I doubt most people will give up convenience even for the sake of the planet that sustains our lives. Humans are incredibly selfish.

But I honestly think that it is too late now and that a major natural disaster caused by the degradation of environment will eventually sort out overpopulation.

What is shocking is people flying within the UK from London to Cornwall ffs.

Two things spring to mind, a lot more would be done to help solve some of the environmental issues facing us all, if they were in reality a lot more affordable for the majority, not the minority here in the UK.
A recent television programme concerning our use of plastics showed that yes we could reduce what we all used, but it meant things cost more and a lot of us are on fairly rigid budgets.
Secondly there are the businesses who could help but again in many cases it puts production costs up and prices, which we the paying customers are then being expected to pay.
As most of us do not like seeing increased higher prices, we do not want the more expensive environmental products instead.
Then there is the infrastructure issues to consider, we would all probably enjoy having a new electric car, but not yet as the charging points are few and far between and the battery life is too small to convince us to swap.
Another idea was the solar panels that people were encouraged to have on their roofs and the promised rewards for producing extra amounts of useable energy, that is either being drastically cut or is being withdrawn completely.

I agree with you @RedTriangle. But humans are selfish and don’t give a shit. We are the species that’s fucked the planet but most people will not change until it has a direct and noticeable effect on them personally.

I despair along with you.

The posters on here who describe their “modest” lives of being veggie, cycling everywhere, consuming less etc: it’s still not enough. You may think that yr life is modest, sustainable and not excessive. But if you can still turn on a tap (one of several in your house) and have fresh running water, if you have a bike and you can cycle on a road, if your children go to school, if you own a mobile phone and a tv, if you flick a switch and the lights come on... you may think of this as a modest life, but it’s already way beyond what the great majority of people in the planet have. If everyone was to have your modest, restrained life, we’d still be fucked because providing clean running water or roads to 8-10 billion people is beyond anything our planet can currently sustain.

We can’t control this, the genie is out of the box and I see very little to suggest that any workable global agreements will be reached. For us in Europe we generally have democratic political systems which are basically popularity contests: who’s going to vote for any party that forces us to give up our cars or stop buying food flown in from o/seas or stop buying Christmas shite? And it will require force in the form of legislation because, as this thread shows, very few people are willing to give these things up.

So what to do? Enjoy it while it’s here. Live the best life you can (whatever that means to you).