To think flying off on holidays is immoral?

[RedTriangle]

Anyone planning to fly off on holidays?

“Every round-trip ticket on flights from New York to London, keep in mind, costs the Arctic three more square meters of ice”
nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html

I live near an airport and there is a steady stream of planes landing and taking off. It feels ominous now in light of the recent WWF report talking about life on earth being wiped out.

There are posts on mumsnet on the section about long haul travel where people are talking about flying off with their families to Thailand or Mexico etc not thinking or not caring about the impact! Future generations won’t be jetting off and living lives like this as we will have destroyed the planet and they will be scrambling to survive.

My parents have booked a weekend in Spain! They regularly do this and they will be long gone while future people pay a terrible price.

[WithAFaeryHandInHand]

I totally agree that the beginning of the chain (ie industry) needs to change. One of the ways to effect this change is to stop buying their products.

Look, I’m with you. The damage is done, genie is out of the bottle blah blah. But, every decision we make as consumers has an effect. If nobody bought the products, then that would decrease demand for these products.

Yes it would take something massive, nay a miracle, to halt climate change, (and the eventual demise of the planet as we know it), in its tracks.

But that is no excuse not to do what we can to protect what we can now, especially when some of what we buy and consume now has an immediate and direct effect on the environment, (eg poisoned drinking water near cotton manufacturers).

The big companies spewing out pollution for products we’re told not to use and the abbatoirs slaughtering tonnes of animals would soon close if enough people stopped funding them.

Again, not to stop climate change in its tracks, that’s frankly ridiculous. But to make things as good as possible for the people who have to live on this planet now and in the future. And for whatever comes after us when we die out.

[AdultHumanFemale]

But Santa , I believe you are being deliberately disingenuous.
Markets are driven by demand. You know this, surely. Services and products are made available and produced in direct relation to the level of demand. Deciding not to use a product or service has an impact on production.
And posters recently, BR and Polly iirc, who have picked up on the point about regretting much loved children because of the impact they may have on the environment are missing the point, as pointed out by Faery ; it isn't about their impact, it is about the squandering of their future. When you dare to face up to the inevitable environmental and societal fallout of climate change, and what this will mean to those you love more than anything (and were responsible for putting on the planet in the first place), you can be forgiven for feeling deeply sad and grieving the loss of the future you may have hoped for for them. My DC are still little, and I live with the daily dichotomy of totally delighting in them in the present moment, and looking at them and feeling immeasurable guilt and worry when I think about what they are going to be navigating in the not too distant future.

[Limensoda]

You have to be rational about these things.
Do your bit and be mindful of what you do and its effects on the environment but you can't control the world!
You will always find something to worry about.
There have always been dangers or something to get anxious about.
I used to worry myself sick about nuclear war when I was a child. You need to enjoy your life while you are here, not waste it by worryingm

[NotSureThisIsWhatIWant]

I am convinced that making little sacrifices ourselves is not going to get us to make any significant changes.

While big companies and governments do keep making money as a priority, nothing that you and me stop doing is going to have an effect.

As an example, we recycle plastic bottles and have bought a fancy organic polymer coffee cup to avoid using so many paper cups. There are still millions of bottles put in the market every morning, producing our organic polymer cup costs the environment more than the paper cups. And don’t start me in supermarket plastic bags, the old ones we used to get for free were in most cases biodegradable, while the new ones are not, so now a much higher quantity of people are using nastier plastic bags to get home.

If I were you, I would start actively campaigning against fracking, pressuring supermarkets to buy locally at a decent price, rather than convince the public not to fly. The fact that you and I stay at home doesn’t make any difference as there will always be someone happy to buy the flight tickets we don’t.

[WithAFaeryHandInHand]

I agree that actively campaigning is one of the most important things we can do. Much more so than recycling (imho). But as consumers, we do have more power than it appears. We don’t have to buy what these companies produce.

[Santaclarita]

AdultHumanFemale of course the market is driven by demand. My point still stands though, you can stop buying yes, and there's 10 more behind you waiting to buy the product you don't want. You can stop flying, and the seat will still be filled by someone else. You can recycle, and other countries will keep using packaging they don't need excessively.

You're a drop in the ocean essentially. Which sucks. It would be great if we could get everyone on board to help save the planet, or at least slow the destruction. But you're never going to, as defeatist as that sounds. Because not everyone is on board.

Keep recycling, reducing waste, not flying as much etc. It doesn't hurt anyone to do it. We still recycle stuff. But it doesn't make me believe we are saving the planet, because we aren't.

[WithAFaeryHandInHand]

Campaigning is important, but I would wager that big companies respond much quicker to their revenue sources (consumers like us) drying up.

[WithAFaeryHandInHand]

I see while you feel that way clarita. I think at some point, if not in my lifetime, then in my children’s when people will be forced to make the changes they don’t fancy making right now.

It’s personal choice, (for now), but I personally don’t want my children to remember me as someone who said “fuck it, I’m living life to the max” and contributed so much more to the damage than the global average.

[Vegetablegarden]

You can work out your own carbon footprint and put money in to mitigate it, and also write a couple of letters to put pressure on industry.

It’s always worth doing more. It’s never very productive I find to single one thing and point the finger.

I took several short haul flights a year and felt guilty. However I don’t drive or own a car, very low use of energy, careful to buy local, etc I worked out that I used far less carbon and energy than sanctimonious non flyers!

We’ve got to do something more about the environment though, let’s take that seriously and not get side tracked into petty debates.

Pressure on industry.
Support for scientific solutions.
If everyone of us on this thread signed a petition / supported any of these groups it might make more of a difference...

www.greenpeace.org.uk/
www.google.ie/search?q=friends+of+the+earth&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-ie&client=safari
www.worldwildlife.org/pages/what-you-can-do-to-fight-climate-change

Like the world wildlife fund says:
Contact your representative. Contact your member of Congress or the Senate. Ask him or her to support climate legislation. Find a member of the House here and a member of the Senate here.

Write a letter to one of your elected representatives at the local, state or Federal level. Tell them you believe climate change is important; and that you support the development and implementation of a climate action plan to reduce emissions and prepare for climate change impacts.

Let’s do the above and not in fighting about who uses the most paper bags / electric cars / flights!

[BadLad]

Campaigning is important, but I would wager that big companies respond much quicker to their revenue sources (consumers like us) drying up.

Sometimes. But the Nestle boycott has been going on for decades, but they still became one of the biggest companies in the world.

[cardibach]

I’m not minimising the issues, but one thing which was disturbing the OP was the report that we have wiped out 60% of wildlife since 1970. The report is a massive distortion of the truth, fortunately. This article explains why.
I fly (usually once a year on holiday, often not long haul) but my other contributions to climate change are lower than most j see on MN. I do way less washing and cleaning than most judging by threads about it. I don’t drive to work. I don’t buy loads of clothes. I have one child. It’s not enough, but hehile massively bigger polluters don’t change I don’t feel guilty about it - and it definitely doesn’t make me feel sick.

[Winebottle]

I think it swimming against the tide to try to stop climate change.

People, myself included, care more about their daily lives and arctic ice so there is never going to be the political support for the drastic changes to people's that would be needed to stop it.

It would be better to accept climate change and look for ways to mitigate the impact. I think future generations will be fine. Humans survived an ice age already, with today's technology, and that of the future, they will adapt to it fine.

[WithAFaeryHandInHand]

Ok, even if you do think that humans will survive an ice age, (there is a lot more to it than that though imo, which I won’t go into as I’m bored of MYSELF on this thread ). Do you not feel as if you’d like to cause as little pollution as you reasonably can? I don’t think everyone should go and live in a cave, (as a pp put it earlier), but cause the minimum harm you reasonably can. We are already causing enough damage to effect humans and kill of however many species it is.

Surely, even if you think climate change is made up or if you accept it’s happening but think we’ll be grand, you’d still like to not cause more damage than necessary if it’s possible to minimise it?

[christmaschristmaschristmas]

Immoral? Smacks of jealousy IMO over what others can afford.

For disclosure I travel for pleasure around 12 times a year and wouldn't give it up.

[Winebottle]

WithAFaeryHandInHand

I agree but it is about deciding what is reasonable and where we want to be between living in caves and not having any regard for the environment.

Personally, not going on holidays would be a set to far, I'd rather lose the 3 square meters.

I think you are on to a loser trying to take away things that people already enjoy. You might get a few trendy people in developed countries to reduce their air travel or eat less meet, but globally these things are going to increase.

[WithAFaeryHandInHand]

I don’t think people will have the choice in the future.

It soon won’t be possible to buy petrol or diesel cars in this country. I linked to an article earlier.

I don’t think it’s just a handful off hipsters making these changes and I think at some point the law or economics won’t give the average jo the choice anymore.

[WithAFaeryHandInHand]

So nobody needs to be convinced, (and certainly not by me of all people). They simply won’t be able to choose.

[Winebottle]

The politicians won't do anything too unpopular. A ban on holidays would not be accepted by the electorate.

[Winebottle]

They make long term promises which they will not be around to deliver on or make small changes to to signal how good they are but they don't make substantial changes.

[AdultHumanFemale]

Winebottle :

with today's technology, and that of the future, they will adapt to it fine
You keep telling yourself that.

I'd rather lose the 3 square meters
The 3 meters are not yours to lose. They are my kids', Red 's kids' and yours too if you have them. They are the polar bears' and the grey seals'. You shouldn't get to make the call on their behalf.

Faery , you have the patience of a very patient person

[ChardonnaysPrettySister]

I think people don’t realise how it’s goung to affect all us.

It’s not just the seals and the polar bears.

Whole countries will be submerged, Bangladesh will be badly hit, so who will sew the clothes we buy here?

Large parts of Africa and Southern Europe will be uninhabitable, millions displaces and water becoming scarce. So no salad, no fresh fruit and veg and no space.

It’s not all abstract, it’s real and will affect all of us in ways we cannot even imagine.

A bit like Brexit, only hotter.

[ChardonnaysPrettySister]

Oh and just imagine the price of wine...

[falseeconomy]

faery
I hear you.

The joy of flying!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46088636

[JanetLovesJason]

Basically the only people who live a life that is sustainable in carbon terms are very, very poor people in the developing world, living in countries with very minimal infrastructure.

I did a year as part of a carbon tracking project, that involved being locavore, no travel, no motorized transport, living in an energy efficient dwelling. Still wasn’t really close to a sustainable level, especially when you take the amount of energy that goes into infrastructure into account.

Knew some people who were part of the project who got a lot lower, by making massive sacrifices. We’re talking living in a purpose built dwelling off grid with a compost toilet and subsistence farming levels. Still not a sustainable level of carbon consumption for world population. And they were very aware that they relied on carbon inputs they couldn’t properly track as part of infrastructure or using tools/equipment etc acquired before the project began.

I then went to work for a really big environmental organisation. Internally, people were focussing on future proofing the organisation and it’s personnel from the impacts of climate change, rather than trying to halt it. That ship has sailed. They still make some efforts to effect changes that will slow climate change. But mostly because it would be a pr/fundraising disaster for them to come out and say that.

[MinecraftHolmes]

Smacks of jealousy IMO over what others can afford.

Most insane response to criticism of frivolous and unneccesssry air travel yet.