to not wear makeup to work?

[TheSunflower]

I am starting a graduate job in January. I don't normally wear makeup. Am I sabotaging myself if I do not wear makeup?

Or should I wear makeup?

It is a corporate job.

Not everyone who wears make up has a Scouse brow, false eyelashes, garish lipstick and contouring. Many women who people think don't wear make up actually do; it's just subtle.

Regarding men in the professional workplace, the expectation of their faces would be clean-shaven or smart, well-groomed facial hair, not au naturel.

I can't be bothered to wear daily make up, I'd have to wake up earlier! I don't have a corporate job though so maybe it is a slightly different world. As it is I am mostly office based nhs and we do have to look professional (too much make up would arguably look unprofessional). I have colleagues that would never come to work without make up and that's fine too if that's how they are most comfortable presenting themselves.

One thing I will say, ive noticed if women usually wear daily make up and then stop one day when you stop people tend to make comments such as saying you look tired or unwell! This just makes me feel more justified in not bothering in the first place. Also not wearing any usually i find means when I do make the effort I'm much more likely to get compliments!

Less is more. I'm a photographer and so am used to analysing faces. For simplicity, it works to emphasise either lips or eyes, depending which is your best feature. I personally look loads better with mascara and groomed eyebrows and I've noticed people hold my gaze longer (or is it that I feel more confident and look back more strongly?) which is an effective tool...You must do what works for you to feel more confident and then you will get ahead.
For a no makeup, makeup look, primer flattens the light and stops shine, and a little lip gloss is very simple but effective.

One point here that might help get into the heads of the non-wearer position:

The argument isn’t “I look better without makeup”. It’s “I don’t care whether I look better or not (as long as I look presentable/sensible etc)”.

It is totally fine for women to be like the hordes of blokes out there who dress in clean clothes that fit them and spend very little energy worrying about the finer points of their complexion! See also shaving, blow-drying, nails etc...

(Of course it is also fine to choose to wear make-up- though personally I wish that our cultural “beauty standards” were less about making people look younger/sleeker/more blemish-free/sexier and more about having fun and experimenting with style. Of course some people are doing the latter with make-up, but on average it has a lot to do with the former).

Lindtnotlint I think you hit the nail on the head for me anyway. I am in the camp of not caring if someone thinks my face 'looks better' with makeup. I therefore don't put any on for work but I might choose to do so on a night out except invariably I don't even then. But then I am also someone who doesn't dye my grey hairs as I am happy to look my age, wrinkles and all

I personally look loads better with mascara and groomed eyebrows and I've noticed people hold my gaze longer (or is it that I feel more confident and look back more strongly?)

It's down to feeling more confident, I'd suspect. Rather than talk about primer and lip gloss, better advice might be for women to find ways to feel more confident that are to do with their professional capabilities.

You must do what works for you to feel more confident and then you will get ahead.

Would your advice to a man on this include reference to primer/mascara etc?

I don't happen to agree as i prefer the no make up look on just about everyone but I accept I am in a minority. I have worn it on TV but not at my wedding and I can see I look different on TV (although TV changes you anyway in lots of ways) but I don't agree it is better. However others might htink it looks better and that's fine.

i think we just live and let live on this. I don't want to bother with it and other people do. You can earn a small fortune as a senior female lawyer, accountant, surgeon etc as many of us on the thread have shown without it although I accept some studies have been done showing in US and probably UK women who wera it may earn more - now that of course may simply because they feel forced to by other women around them wearing it in a way that my son when a post man did not find his postal female colleagues did - just depends on the job. It may also be because those with more money and time can buy it and have time to put it on I suppose.

Anyway each to their own. I don't go arond looking at women with make up on saying - ah strumpet, loose morals, make up, only interested in how you look you shallow irreligious creature. Let women or men wear it if they want to. i do think making how you look a major part of how you feel though it not likely to make you very happy in life (although others will tell me of the enormous pleasure they get form dressing up, getting reading or indeed how quickly the make up takes them).

EVERYONE needs a little help as they get older - you are no exception!"

except men obviously...they age just fine without make up...they gain things like wisdom and experience and gravitas as they get older...

but yeah women totally become useless as they get older...utterly pointless....and their only option is to try and hide the fact its happening.

Gabilan yes, happy to elaborate, it was when you decided to have a go at at Grannieali in your other post. I didn’t want to repeat what you said. She is entitled to her opinion, as are you but ( in my opinion) you were being provocative to her and your post was over the top and a bit unecessary. I don’t want to argue with you.

I often wear make up both at work and not. I don't do it because of societal obligations because Im female. I do it because I like wearing it.

I don't feel the need to slap things on my face. I use a brush for foundation/bb cream, another brush for bronzer/blush and whatever I'm using on my eyes. No slapping is involved anywhere.

I don't really like this idea that because I freely choose to wear make up that I'm less worthy as a woman, a feminist and that I'm obsessed with image. None of that is true. I just have different views to some people on this thread who are a very tiny representation of women.

I've held senior positions in a few organisations, and nobody was ever concerned about whether you wore makeup or not.
The more junior women were usually the ones who wore more makeup. My female colleagues were careful not to overdo the grooming and makeup in case we were mistaken for a junior.

wollyheart - older female professionals often exude their experience and confidence and don’t need make up to compensate for lack of natural poise

Leigh I don't think anyone has said that anyone who wears make-up for whatever reason or motivation is obsessed by image etc.
There is a big gulf between women who wear make-up because they enjoy it and they like the way it makes them look; and the women who depend on make-up for their self-esteem and cannot leave the house without it for fear of what they think people will think or say.
The first group are making a choice, the second group (I feel) are not doing it by choice, they are trapped into dependency on make-up because they feel inadequate and inferior for some reason.
I don't think anyone chooses to feel like that about themselves, and I feel it's something we have created as a society, making women so hyper-critical of their own appearance. That is what I abhor.

Haha! I'm not sure that many people would have said that we had natural poise!

But yes, we did have more experience, and maybe didn't need the makeup for confidence.

@Pigeonpies never leave the house without a full face on. But that's because I look ugly without it,

I am so sorry that you have been conditioned to think in this way. You really do not look ugly without makeup, you may not fit a particular stereotype but, just like every human being, you are beautiful, just as you are.

Try reading https://www.desiderata.com/desiderata.html and see how you feel about that point of view?

it was when you decided to have a go at at Grannieali

I went through her post point by point and responded to it. I'm sure she's quite capable of responding. And frankly, if you imply that you have to wear makeup to be female (not feminine, which is a whole other issue, but female) then you deserve to be taken to task.

If you want to wear make up go ahead, if you don't, don't.

I wear make up to work, I don't wear a full face of "slap", I use it to enhance my look.

I don't understand the feminist argument about make-up. I know lots of women that don't wear make-up but do dye their hair, wax their eyebrows, shave their legs. What's the difference?

While I don't know any man that wears make-up, neither do I know any Gandalfs that refuse to conform to society and don't shave/trim their facial hair. Likewise when men get to a certain age and nose and ear hair becomes a thing, they generally trim it without any hand wringing about agendas.

Just coming back to this thread to say that at work, some people (yes, all the humans) wear makeup and others don't. Anyone in front of a camera will wear lots, but they do not look "made up" in the broadcast. I would notice someone in the queue for coffee and sandwiches who was obviously on camera,, oh and the people who had been made up for Hallow'een on Wednesday, but otherwise, who cares.

I made sure to get roles which are not camera facing, so no need for makeup in everyday working life.

Maybe it's because there are always skills shortages in technical roles, so that no one would think of adding unnecessary requirements into a job spec, but i like to hope not. Technical skills, people skills yes, care about outward appearances like makeup, not so much. Bliss.

Gabilan Not implying what you say and I won’t be ‘taken to task* by you! That lady is of an age and remembers an era of days gone by. I thought that probably deserved a little more respect than you gave her in your response, in my opinion, that was all. You took everything she said so literally and were being a bit obtruse. As I said I don’t want to argue with you and I will be saying no more. No doubt you will want last word though

Wear make up if you want, don't wear make up if you don't want to.

Those of you who are trotting out the bullshit about looking more professional / polished, needing a bit of help etc - just fucking stop it. If you want to wear it, that's fine, wear it. Stop making out that those who choose not to are somehow harming their career.

Fucks sake, with other women trotting this complete garbage out we don't need the male misogynists do we.

Not implying what you say and I won’t be ‘taken to task by you!*

It was Grannieali who implied that one had to wear makeup to be female ("I decided not to be a boy") and it was Grannieali I was taking to task. And she didn't strike me as someone who needed handling with kid gloves simply because of her age.

No doubt you will want last word though. Just correcting your misinterpretation of my post.

meredith do you really not get the feminist argument here?

The OP has been told on this thread multiple times that she NEEDS to wear make up in order to look professional at work.

How often do you think men are told that they NEED to wear make up to look professional at work?

That is why make up is a feminist issue.

Women's value in work and of course wider society is modified by their appearance in a way that men's value simply isn't.

Every single woman wearing make up is adding to the pressure on all other women to bow to societal norms and buy into their value being determined by their appearance.

There are any number of posters on here who don't engage with make up, who cited that their own mothers also didn't.

Think what message you are sending to your daughters when you tell them 'oh you can be whatever you want, look however you want' but then can't personally leave the house without a full face of make up on yourself.

Exactly. In fact I've deliberately stopped wearing any in the last few years at public speeches I give as I never used to anyway and it made no difference except wastes time and I hate its feel on my face and secondly I don't like that junior people looking at me might think you need to wear it to be very successful in this field which is definitely not so.

Every single woman wearing make up is adding to the pressure on all other women to bow to societal norms and buy into their value being determined by their appearance.*

And that right there is where you lose the room.

You aren't a feminist, M3lon, you are one of those women who pretends to be one but undermines, patronises and judges other women for their decisions and who makes young women distance themselves from feminism. Women who send stupid text messages to their friends judging what their Y6 daughter does.

I agree with many of your comments about societal expectations of women but you say it so unpleasantly, and so patronisingly, that it makes me want to distance myself from you completely, as much as if you were a radical Islamic preacher judging women for uncovering their faces in public.

I wear make-up, but I don't by any means never leave the house without it. I like football, trains, cars, aeroplanes and drinking beer, have a post-graduate qualification and work in construction. But I also like make-up and pink, fashion, sparkly things, cats, gin and all manner of "girly" stuff. I am an excellent role model for my daughters showing them that there are so many choices open to them and you don't have to conform to default male appearance nor pretend feminist underminers of women in clothing, appearance or fashion to get on in life and be taken seriously.