To believe that trans is not a mental health condition

[Babykoala1]

Preparing to get flamed of course and expecting feminists to come out in full fource. Just as the title suggests, I do not believe that trans is a mental health condition as much as homosexuality or even intersex would be considered a mental health condition. I'm sure here on Mumsnet I am in the minority and I will be absolutely flamed for having the audacity to compare it to homosexuality. But really? Why is homosexuality accepted as a part of biology yet trans can be automatically discarded as a mental health issue?

I'll get my coat

I'm not sure what I'd classify dominance as to be honest, higher status in pecking order I guess.

Have you MRIed a lot of newborns? Because otherwise that's just speculation.

What do you think my statistic - that 58% of Russian engineers are women - tells us, werefox?

I'd say it indicates that supposed differences of aptitude between the sexes are culturally constructed.

We know that babies are treated differently depending on which sex they are (or are perceived to be) from the moment they're born. Quite a lot of work has been done that proves that.

There's a that demonstrates this. Adults were asked to play with babies who were given names and clothing associated with one sex but were in fact the other. So "Sophie" was really Edward. The difference in how the adults treated them was dramatic.

Even if brain structure was 100000% the same in both sexes, a notion that I reject but just say it was proven with no amount of uncertainty. Where do hormones come into this discussion then? Hormones play a fundamental role in our behaviour and there is no denying that males and females do not share the same hormonal patterns

Why do you believe brain patterns and hormones make a person female but not their genitals or chromosomes?

I guess rat, society has influenced your kidneys sort of - society will influence your lifestyle, and that will affect the relevant biological processes for whatever body part. Say if you are in a society where the men drink a lot of alcohol and women hardly any, that's going to have an effect on your kidneys that would appear to be sex-linked...?

Inferior by Angela Saini is a good book on male/female brains.

Also Cordelia Fine, Testosterone Rex which won the Royal Society Science Book prize.

Hormones affect behaviour, but taking cross sex hormones won't make someone behave or be more like the opposite sex.

Taking hormones isn't anything like the immensely complex mechanisms that underly producing them naturally.

I've heard transwomen talk about
taking HRT but of course they're not taking hormone replacement therapy because they have never produced the hormone themselves.

It's a bit like claims that a man will soon be able to gestate a foetus. You could only think such a thing might be possible if you had a very primitive plug n play understanding of reproductive biology.

Some of us because it's been postulated as the reason women are only good for shitwork, fucking and decoration for hundreds of years.

Those of us who feel twitchy about ladybrain want to see very good evidence of meaningful differences, that cannot be accounted for by socialisation, if we are to entertain the concept.

There hasn't been any so far.

Meanwhile we have very good evidence that brains are extremely plastic and extremely adaptive, especially in our early years but throughout life. We also have very good evidence that we unconsciously socialise our children into sex roles from birth, and the whole of our culture joins in with this.

OP, you keep saying “I believe”. What are your qualifications or your area of expertise? Without wishing to seem rude, why should we be influenced by what you “believe”

Why are people so eager to reject the fact that there are physiological differences in males and females that go beyond genitalia. There are differences between the male and female foetus from as young as three weeks in utero. It would be farcical to deny the role society plays in gender stereotypes but I think it's ridiculous to put all disimilarities down to societal conditioning.

Indeed. I must point out to the "It's Biology, Stupid Trans Men, It's Every Cell In Our Bodies" GC posters, that the brain is, in fact, part of the body. Wake up and smell your Cartesian dualism.

Also thrilled to be seeing the trans obsession increasingly spill into AIBU.

@WaxOnFeckOff

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what you've described.

I also know of several young women who were adamantly against all things "girly" until they reached a certain age.

That being said my son is his own person and if everything in him is telling him he wants/needs to live his life as a male then he has my full support.

Like you said just let people be without judgement.

What do you think my statistic - that 58% of Russian engineers are women - tells us, werefox?

I'd say it indicates that supposed differences of aptitude between the sexes are culturally constructed.

Have you come across the finding that in countries e.g. Canada where there's the freest choice and least gender pressure in careers there's actually more of a gap than in more genderedly pressured but (I think) non-command economies?

Wake up and smell your Cartesian dualism

Tell it to the 'born in the wrong body' advocates.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy

Why would I not describe my newborn that way?
He was breathtakingly beautiful as my daughter and is very handsome as my son.
Any choices that my son makes with regards to medication/surgery will be entirely his choice after a very long and thorough process with specialists in this field.

He chose his name, he chose when to transition and he chose when to step out as a young man to everyone he knows.

I don't have any answers for him (support is less than minimal) and I can't say what the future holds but I am so very proud of him for living his life how he wants to and for being who he is.

Homosexually is totally different.
Trans is more like body dysmorphia, like pp states.
Trans makes me so sad. They can never really be at peace. Because what they want just can't be. Even after all the surgery etc, it's not THAT effective, they don't get that close to what they really want.

And most of them are very very mentally tortured/unstable and just not happy. So sad. So yes, it is mental.

Like you said just let people be without judgement.

Yes, but your daughter is still your daughter, they are not your son and I understand you want to support them, but I'm not sure that this is helping to be honest. Nor is implying that in any way is it possible to change sex.

It's not possible.

Here you go (make sure you read the update at the top which nullifies the article):

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/digest.bps.org.uk/2018/01/31/sex-differences-in-brain-structure-are-already-apparent-at-one-month-of-age/amp/

Ah ok But that doesn't necessarily exclude biological variation any more than adult height does.

Wake up and smell your Cartesian dualism

Tell it to the 'born in the wrong body' advocates.

No, again, they're talking about brains. You know, that great lump of hormone-juiced offal in our heads.

And most of them are very very mentally tortured/unstable and just not happy. So sad. So yes, it is mental.

Kind of like the gays in Saudi ?

Kind of like the gays in Saudi?

but put a gay person in an accepting environment as there's no reason why they can't be happy and fulfilled

it's not possible to change sex, so no matter where you put a trans person, they're not going to feel fulfilled, because what they want isn't possible.

and the surgery that is available to trans people often leaves them with impaired sexual function - far from ideal.

@WaxOnFeckOff

I never implied it was possible to change sex?

I understand the reasons for some individuals wanting to reject the idea that variations between sexes are not entirely a product of social conditioning. I am female and like most other females, have experienced sexual discrimination in one way or another. I'm not denying the impact gender stereotypes have on society, I just believe there are a combination of factors as to why men and women are fundamentally different. As asked by PP why my suggestions should be accepted, no I'm no expert. I'm interested in the trans debate but just wanted to talk about it from a biological perspective. The language I am using "believe" "think" is because like everyone else, its speculation. I can not say for certain why individuals identify as transgender in the same way that (at present) nobody else can.

Haven't RTFT but to address the OP regarding physiology being proof that trans is not mental illness.

My husband has major depressive disorder, also known as clinical depression. Amongst other things factoring into his mental health issues are hormones, neurotransmitters and brain wiring. Certainly there's a strong genetic factor in play given his family history. He will likely need to be on corrective medication his whole life - luckily he responds well to this.

Depression is categorised as a mental illness but it is also - in many cases - a physical one. Certainly it has physical effects in all those afflicted. MRIs show vastly different brain activity to the normal function as well as a smaller hippocampus and other structural differences, including fewer seratonin and opioid receptors. Adult depression has been linked to Alzheimers and is likened to a form of brain injury or a dying of the brain in certain areas.

I haven't researched other conditions but I'm betting all mental health conditions have some form of physiological causes or effects. They're categorised as mental health because they have to do with mood, thinking and behaviour - not because they are somehow intrinsically less-than other medical diagnoses (though that absolutely is the history and the stigma).

We do a disservice if we resort to one mode of diagnosis and treatment for any condition without asking why that person is feeling the way they do. We also do a disservice when we equate feelings with facts and that they alone decide the outcome - my husband would be dead if that were the case. And again, we do a disservice to think that physiology rules out any kind of mental health issue - because that is patently untrue.

And please stop talking about mental illness like it is something icky you stepped in. If trans was indeed a mental illness it would be no less deserving of understanding, support, compassion and treatment than any other explanation of trans would be. The fact people fight so hard to be NOT under the umbrella of mental health speaks volumes about how much contempt our society still views those illnesses with.

I never implied it was possible to change sex?

No, but calling your daughter your son gives them the impression that it is. It implies that they are male and they aren't. I absolutely think you are completely right to accept your daughter for who she is. But she is Female and always will be.

My son has scarring to his face that he is awaiting plastic surgery for. He's been told he has to go back on the waiting list in a years time because the consultant has retired. I have to manage his expectations, I've had to say to him that no matter how much we wish it wasn't so and how much we wish for a miracle, his face will never be perfect again. It just wont. But that's okay, his scars don't define who he is.

Your daughter is your daughter regardless of whether she calls herself Steve, wears a suit, has a cropped haircut, likes women or whatever, and that's ok too.

Which psychological characteristics, traits and behaviours in human males and females are due to innate brain differences?

MenoMum4 have you come across Lily Maynard's and her daughter's story?

Brilliant post Nerfballs.