To believe that trans is not a mental health condition

[Babykoala1]

Preparing to get flamed of course and expecting feminists to come out in full fource. Just as the title suggests, I do not believe that trans is a mental health condition as much as homosexuality or even intersex would be considered a mental health condition. I'm sure here on Mumsnet I am in the minority and I will be absolutely flamed for having the audacity to compare it to homosexuality. But really? Why is homosexuality accepted as a part of biology yet trans can be automatically discarded as a mental health issue?

I'll get my coat

Prawn, my favourite example of cultural variance is football/soccer. In Britain a girl who likes football may be called a boy, whereas in the US a boy who likes soccer may he called a girl. It's the same bloody sport!!

MenoMum4

I have no doubt that this is exactly your experience. However, what is actually wrong with being a female who is attracted to other females and likes to have short hair and wear clothes that are more typically worn by males? What part of this means that she needs to have treatment of any sort? I am bemused tbh.

I have also experienced female children in exactly the same scenario as you describe that hit age 14/15 and abruptly change. One, who wouldn't even wear "girls" underwear, ended up becoming a beauty therapist and is as glam as you could imagine. This woman spent her childhood in football strips with cropped hair and climbing trees/playing football and insisting everyone call her by a boys name.

Why we can't just let people "be" without judgement I have no idea.

MenoMum4 why do you describe your child as "possibly the most beautiful little girl ever"? What has this got to do with anything?

What you say suggests your DC is reacting against gender stereotypes. This is common among teenagers and super common for those who are lesbian or gay.

There are plenty of accounts that lesbians in particular take many years to come to terms with their sexual orientation. It doesn't help that there are no butch lesbian role models. Indeed being a butch lesbian is deeply unfashionable.

In contrast, coming out as trans at school gets a girl lots of attention and extra status. But once you've told everyone you're trans, backing out - changing your mind - can be very tricky.

Be grateful for the delay in seeing the clinic. Putting your child on medication is not going to help and is likely to make matters worse. Your child will never be a man.

Gender non conforming girls need support to be the gender non conforming girls they are rather than encouraging them to enter the medical route.

Sex changes are impossible and medical transition for girls is very destructive of their healthy bodies. Even teenagers who act as if they know all about trans issues are unrealistic about what can and cannot be done in terms of physical changes.

I've heard from a teacher that kids think you can have sex change surgery. Not surprising, as many adults believe the same

You might find the group 4th Wave Now helpful. It describes itself as:
A community of parents & others concerned about the medicalization of gender-atypical youth and rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD)

Yes, BeyondAdultHumanFemale. That's a good example, though I think the Russian engineers one is even more striking.

Prawn that's my view too. It's somehow easier to say you are really a boy/girl rather than just that you are gay. Which is weird really as in the main teenagers seem to be pretty accepting of peoples choices. My own DC couldn't give a flying fuck. Is being gay just not interesting enough anymore? Is it too accepted and therefore not rebellious enough?

Male and female brains are not disntinguishable until after societal influences have stamped /forced them to develop in particular ways through education/ indoctrination. Sterotyping.

Have you MRIed a lot of newborns? Because otherwise that's just speculation.

Why are people so eager to reject the fact that there are physiological differences in males and females that go beyond genitalia. There are differences between the male and female foetus from as young as three weeks in utero. It would be farcical to deny the role society plays in gender stereotypes but I think it's ridiculous to put all disimilarities down to societal conditioning.

Actually I'm quite sure there was a study of newborn brains done at some point, but I may have dreamt it as last time I looked for it I couldn't find it

There are differences between the male and female foetus from as young as three weeks in utero.

Biological changes.

It's a very hard thing to prove one way or the other as Brains all look alike, it's an organ and we have no real way of seeing and understanding the neurology, so research is all in it infancey still.

Why are people so eager to reject the fact that there are physiological differences in males and females that go beyond genitalia

Well, I'd suggest that 4000 years of patriarchal oppression - based on our capacity for babymaking apparently somehow meaning females have poor reasoning skills - might have something to do with my eagerness, but then if the science doesn't support 100% sexed brains then it just doesn't.
Whether I want it to or not!

I am refering to hormonal differences which have a significant role to play in almost every aspect of our bodies.

And I don't think anyone is outright rejecting the idea of there being any sex differences beyond primary sex characteristics - have you not seen any discussion here on transpeople in sport!

I am refering to hormonal differences which have a significant role to play in almost every aspect of our bodies.

Hormones are biological.

Or are they?
This is a good question.

Is it neuro-chemical?

Thank you captain I am already aware of this, why would you think I'm not?

Thank you captain I am already aware of this, why would you think I'm not?

Sorry, I've lost track, you already knew about what?

Why are people so eager to reject the fact that there are physiological differences in males and females that go beyond genitalia

I don't think anyone is saying that. Men and women's bodies are very different. This is readily apparent in sport, where men consistently and significantly outperform women.

It's a form of blank slate-ism Babykoala. And I agree, it's farcical to believe the extreme position that in nature vs. nurture it's 100% nurture.

It's a very interesting discussion isn't it.

Have you MRIed a lot of newborns? Because otherwise that's just speculation.

Here you go (make sure you read the update at the top which nullifies the article):

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/digest.bps.org.uk/2018/01/31/sex-differences-in-brain-structure-are-already-apparent-at-one-month-of-age/amp/

I do wonder if some people think men and women are physiologically different (in general terms) in almost every way, except their brains.

But that's barmy, because even men's and women's kidneys are different. Society hasn't influenced those kidneys!! It's nuts to think the brain is somehow this super special organ that is immune to these differences. It may be where we consider our minds to reside, but biologically it's no more special than any other tissue in our body in this respect.

Are there any cultures were females are dominant, or at least more equal to males?

It's a very interesting discussion isn't it.

I think so!

Are there any cultures were females are dominant, or at least more equal to males?

Yes, including our own pre-Romans. It depends on what basis you assess equality/dominance though as to which specific examples I'd give.