Would you consider me transphobic?

[TheSkyisAlive]

First of all I believe that gender dysphoria is a mental illness and should not be treated with hormones and surgery. Having said that, it's their body and their choice and if that's what a person wants, they shouldn't face abuse or live in fear.

But just because you identify as a female does not mean you are one. Even after surgery.

You do not understand what it is like to be a female and the problems we face. You do not get to speak on behalf of women. You should not compete in female only sports.

Does that make me transphobic or simply someone who does not want the females to be second class citizens?

Yes, you are transphobic and grossly uneducated on the issue.

The thing is, ANYONE on this thread who has ANY doubt or reservation about ANY of the examples below, is considered a raging transphobic bigot. There is no "yes, but..." allowed.

E.g.

• Should adult men be allowed to transfer and compete in women's sports - including full contact ones like rugby and MMA?

- Should adult males be allowd to classify thsemleves as female HCPs and the patient have no right to demur? - Should adult males be able to wear women's clothing part time and win award for women in business? - Should adult males be able to take places on all-women shortlists in politics? - Should adult males be able to enter refuges and rape centres because they "feel like" a woman?

No just thinking what most people do

I thought transphobia was about behaving in ways that were abusive or denied people access to things like jobs or housing and so on, based on their gender status.

Now it seems that it is transphobic not to believe that someone literally is the sex they say they are, as well as the gender they say they are? So basically sex and gender are now considered the same thing or interchangeable?

I'm not sure how to figure that concept out. I believe the reasoning goes something along the lines of if you feel and believe you are a certain gender/sex then whatever biological functions you have are included as aligning to that sex. For example a female penis or male ovaries.

The further reasoning is that if anyone disagrees with this they are causing emotional violence and are therefore hateful and bigoted.

Ergo, to avoid being transphobic, it is necessary to accept that no matter what a person's background, gender socialisation and biological sex presentation, they are literally the sex they say they are. Not that the person believes it and should be given respect for wanting to be treated as the sex/gender they feel they are, but they are that sex/gender as a material reality.

Is that about right in terms of transphobia as has developed over the last few years would you say?

Yes Inkygrail, and can you imagine how that would sound if a white person self identified as a POC in this way. Oh, hang on, we don't have to imagine that - we saw that whole embarrassing, offensive story last year.

• Should lesbians be told they should include "female penises" as sexual partners, or otherwise be dismissed as "transphobic vagina fetishists"?

- Should children be put on extremely powerful drugs which could/does render them infertile for life, leaving them with no sex life and prepubescent genitalia?

All of these things and a load more. Question any aspect of just one of them = transphobe. You can't pick and choose.

My sister is non-binary in secret, wearing binders and going by a male name behind her mum's back. I took all the screenshots and told our mother to get her some help. My sister has been through so much trauma in her early life, it needs addressing before some pro-trans doctor puts her on a fast-track to mastectomies and testosterone.

that's the thing, people saying the OP is transphobic are happy to cherry pick what they think is or isn't 'true trans'. Nope. Either you think TWAW, in which case you endorse Rachel McKinnon and Karen White, or you don't.

Let me help you there ShotsFired, because what you've written is actually hideously misleading. I'm sure it wasn't deliberate...

• Should adult men be allowed to transfer and compete in women's sports - including full contact ones like rugby and MMA.. If the risk has been assessed by the governing body of that sport, and appropriate criteria set to negate any risk, up to and including full exclusion of trans women?

• Should adult males be allowd to classify thsemleves as female HCPs and the patient have no right to demur given that a patient always has a right to refuse treatment from HCP without giving a reason

• Should adult males be able to wear women's clothing part time identify as gender fluid and win award for women in business be listed as the only trans individual on the top 100 women in business?

• Should adult males transwomen be able to take places on all-women shortlists in politics, given that these are supposed to combat the bias in politics against anyone who is not a cis man?

• Should adult males trans women be able to enter refuges and rape centres because they "feel like" a woman they have been raped or abused, just as they are able to at present and are supported to do by Rape Crisis UK?

There you go, I've "unbiased" it for you.

@misscockerspaniel thank you for the explanation and info, appreciate it

No you haven’t Rat, you’ve just put your own biases on instead.

No you haven’t Rat, you’ve just put your own biases on instead.

It wouldn't be a counter to the original bias if I didn't present the alternative. Both are now visible on this thread, and at least now everybody has half a chance of making up their own mind despite the overwhelming bias of many other posts

Transwomen are adult males though.

You’re free to post your opinion. You can’t claim it’s unbiased though.

Harmlesschap with sports it's not just hormones which give a male advantage it's difference in organ size too.

Rat the common denominator of the type of person that most murders women - other men. Why aren't more trans people calling out the actions of other men if that's a reason they don't feel safe using men's facilities? Why aren't they helping to make everywhere safer? As for -If your partner or ex-partner is following you into the ladies' toilets he's probably a bad guy. HTH. - what do you suggest my 10 year old DD do if she is using the ladies changing room communal area and a trans woman who hasn't physically transitioned, walks around happily totally naked, in front of her?

You can’t claim it’s unbiased though

I didn't; at least I didn't intend to. What I should have written was that I had rebalanced the bias in the context of that post on this thread, rather than that my version was devoid of it.

what do you suggest my 10 year old DD do if she is using the ladies changing room communal area and a trans woman who hasn't physically transitioned, walks around happily totally naked, in front of her?

Well what do you suggest we do about it? If this inconsiderate trans woman has breast and a penis, where would you like her to go? To them men's so she can jiggle her tits in front of little boys? A "third space"? Hey, you know what, instead of building that expensive and impractical third space that trans people don't actually want, how about we just put cubicles in all changing areas?

Then that hugely improbable and massively offensive stereotype of the inconsiderate trans woman with zero sexual boundaries and a love of upsetting little girls won't be able to present that 0.0001% risk of upsetting your daughter in the future, okay?

We're going round in circles now - the issue is that trans women can't speak for women because they have very different experiences in relation to the overall balance of power in society. They are a group with their own needs, culture and issues and it demeans and patronises both transwomen and cis women to say that they are the same thing.

Women transitioning to men do not start from a place of privilege and then claim to speak for a group who is underprivileged. That's the reason why they feature less in these discussions.

Nobody is arguing that violence towards women, transwomen or any other marginalised group is ok. But I can understand why people feel very anxious about biological men in women only spaces. There needs to be a balance of common sense and responsibility towards vulnerable people both ways. Like so much in life, it's about putting the other person first when you have a choice.

Feel free to write what you want Rat, including your unnecessary little barbs.

You're right, people can see exactly what's going on

No, I don't believe that the OP is being transphobic. Pro women, yes, but according to activist rhetoric the two are symbiotic. Eye roll.
I have no idea why homophobia is being dragged into it.

If self ID happens then that risk is likely to be very real and that isn't acceptable to a young girl. Don't pretend everyone who wants to self ID is genuine as we've seen recently.

I'm not saying I know what the answer is, could be s third space who knows but there are reasons we have segregated spaces.

reasons why we have *

You can't compare transphobia and homophobia IMO.

Thanks for all the replies, interesting to read. For what it's worth I don't believe I'm transphobic. If people want to call me transphobic, then so be it. I stand by my opinions.

It’s not black and white because there are more recent issues on the agenda here.

Saying that you don’t believe that gender disphoria is a thing and that it is merely a mental illness you are being ignorant and bigoted. That doesn’t mean that the discussions around shared spaces and self ID aren’t valid, however gender disphoria has been a recognised condition for centuries.

There are people who still believe that being gay is a choice rather than who one is, and we don’t consider that to be acceptable, so why the statement that gender disphoria is a mental illness and shouldn’t be treated?

Lol at ‘she can jiggle her tits’ to describe a (hypothetical) man who’s had false breasts added but still has a penis 😂
I’m also unconvinced by the ‘well if you’re not happy with any HCP, you can just ask for someone else’ argument. If I’ve taken time off work to have a smear, then how easy will it be for me to take more time off? (maybe unpaid). It’s not like there’s likely to be an option of several different HCPs waiting idly in case of objections. And I wouldn’t particularly want to upset a tw nurse who had been assigned to perform a smear test (even though I don’t think they’d have any business at all being there) that pesky female socialisation makes it harder did us to state our objections and needs doesn’t it? Meanwhile my fanny’s being used to validate someone’s gender identity