to be really surprised that the school assumed these things?

[JessieMcJessie]

I emailed a local school to ask about visiting because we are thinking of sending our son there. My email didn’t state my title and referred to “we” and “our son” but didn’t say explicitly that his other parent was male, or that we were married.

The email came back “Dear Mrs McJessie” and asked me to give my husband’s full name if he was joining me on the visit.

AIBU to be very surprised that they just assumed that I (a) went by “Mrs” (b) was married and (c) was heterosexual? In actual fact they were correct on all three counts, but that’s not the point- I thought that people were a bit more careful to assume nothing in this day and age.

"I'm the same as Natalia. Also if I'm upset about something I would speak to the person/school - they most likely will
not be that bothered/judgemental about what your situation is and particularly, what you want to be called. Only a big deal if you want it to be."

Yes. So would I. But can you not take on board the fact that there are plenty of people who would feel judged and be incapable of addressing the issue with an institution that they already feel intimidated by?

but it's totally unfair to expect a four year old to have to either stay quiet or correct their teachers assumption.
Absolutely. A good school would never do this.

I remember a teacher in assembly telling the children that they were only allowed to invite their mummies or daddies. Her exact words were "I don't want to see any grandparents or aunts and uncles", basically saying there wasn't enough space. Fair enough, limit invites to two per person if you need to, but to specify which adults were allowed was horrible. I didn't have a mum or a dad, and I was so upset, as were many others who felt othered and left out.

"Unfortunately, “partner” also means someone with whom one is in business. So it’s not always the obvious answer and doesn’t always come without confusion...."

Because if a school talks about your partner coming to look round with you they might mean your business partner? Don't be silly.

But can you not take on board the fact that there are plenty of people who would feel judged and be incapable of addressing the issue with an institution that they already feel intimidated by?

I get the point - I do see what you’re saying. That said, can you also take on board my point that the cumbersome, clumsy way you need to word even pretty basic correspondence to try to encapsulate all possible permutations of a situation may itself cause people to feel intimidated by that institution? Because it maybe isn’t clear to them what’s being asked/what most people do/why it’s worded in such an awkward fashion?

Because if a school talks about your partner coming to look round with you they might mean your business partner? hmm Don't be silly.

In fairness, I meant in a general context. I agree that the context is obvious with a school. But it does explain why someone may not choose to use the term more generally.

There is no need for it to be clumsy. You are making it unnecessarily so to try to make a point. How children address teachers is not remotely relevant in a letter inviting a prospective parent on a visit.

I’m not - I was trying to think how to draft it in a reasonable way. They call you “Mrs” because they use titles there. If they reply “Dear Natalia Osipova, signed Wackford Squeers” it is not clear what Wackford Squeers will call me, or what I should call him. And, whatever your view of what correspondence should look like, people do not refer to each other as “Firstname Lastname” in face to face discourse. They simply do not. So there comes a point at which you decide whether to call me “Natalia” or go for the more formal “Mrs Osipova”. And if, as you’ve said repeatedly here, it’s a big deal to get the title wrong, then you really need to ask what it is if you want to use it. And schools do want to use it, because they want to ram home that that’s the way their staff should be addressed and referred to.

"And schools do want to use it, because they want to ram home that that’s the way their staff should be addressed and referred to"

The only school I have ever heard of where they had to "ram home" how they want children to address teachers is one where they use first names. Otherwise, the teacher says "Goos morning. My name is Ms/miss/mrs/mr X...." and it goes from there.

This is a total non issue and who cares.

Otherwise, the teacher says "Goos morning. My name is Ms/miss/mrs/mr X...." and it goes from there.

To the children, sure. But that’s not the way adults speak to each other.

My friend’s DD goes to a dance school with a very old fashioned teacher who insists from the start “My name is Jane Smith. Please call me Mrs Smith and ask your daughters to do so.” That’s far more intimidating for someone than being given the “nod” that “it’s titles here” by being sent an email to “Dear Mrs Bloggs....”. I think so anyway. Worse still would be for someone who doesn’t know much about schools/is intimidated by the environment to call the teacher “Jane” and be corrected.

To be honest I didn't get the issue was about the poster feeling intimidated or judged and so felt unable to speak up. I think the discussion has taken on legs here. My original thought about the post was she didn't think it was right for a school who had no knowledge of her, in a general enquiries email response, to assume that she was married. I get her point but as someone who has kids and is not married, I find there are more important things to worry about. As an aside, we're practicing catholic and the kids attend catholic schools, which people may feel are more 'judgemental'. I also have many friends who are in non nuclear families and they or their children are not concerned - they are brought up to feel proud of who they are and accept that people will mistakenly make assumptions. It's not a major issue nowadays; many people would apologise and address the situation if you tell them you're offended or prefer to be called your right prefix.

I'd like that dance teacher's clear direction, but then I'm in my 50s and in matters like this a bit old-fashioned by most people's standards. I loathe being addressed by my first name by someone I've never met without being asked first. I personally don't mind people assuming I'm a Mrs but that's probably because I am one, by choice. If I were to be called Ms that would barely register. I'd raise an eyebrow at Miss used without checking for anyone over the age of 30.

In most of the rest of the world women over a certain age all get a more formal title, like Frau or Madame or Signora vs Fraulein, Mademoiselle or Signorina, just because of their age, even if they never married. Mark of respect for age.

Nowadays increasingly I just think how idiotic all these titles are. Men have one, we should have one too. Nobody knows from a man's title if he's married or not. Why should it matter in 2018 to be able to tell if a woman is?

"To be honest I didn't get the issue was about the poster feeling intimidated or judged and so felt unable to speak up"
It wasn't. She was surprised that the school appeared not to be aware that there are many people who would feel judged and unable to speak up.

Im not sure if im missing something or are just laid back about minor irritations but i still stand by it being a non issue. If I recall correctly this was an independent school. In my experience ind. schools can be rather traditional and many people send their children to such places because they are. It was a minor assumption and easily rectified. However, it might be an insight to further traditional viewpoints and therefore a visit would be necessary to determine if you wanted your child to attend such a place.

Thanks for keeping the side up Bertrand (If I may be so informal as to call you that).

Thinking more about your repeated question regarding those who say it is a complete non-issue and I am a handwringing hysteric with nothing better to worry about - why are they being so aggressive and clamouring to slag me off (including with personal attacks about my sex life, now of course deleted)?

If you think about it, my whole point here is that I think that people should think a bit harder before making assumptions, because of the message that can send out to those who do not conform to traditional (in my view, outdated) norms. It is the polite and respectful thing to do.

However the kind of person who posts comments like “get a grip” and “you need to get out more” and “it’s assumed because it’s NORMAL” is by definition a rude person who doesn’t give a flying fuck about other people’s feelings. So of course they are the ones who least understand my point. Still depressing that so many surfaced on here though.

A question to derxa, and any other teachers out there- so you really do call each other “Mr Smith” and “Miss Jones” between yourselves in the staff room? I am sorry that i assumes you would not (see what assuming does?) as it just sounds so odd to me- “Would you like a biscuit with your tea Miss Brown?” “A digestive please Mr Chapman!”

@Inertpotato

And how has de-normalising the nuclear family worked out for children in general?

I read this as a sarcastic question. You genuinely think that all society’s problems affecting children are a result of society’s acceptance of unmarried co-habiting parents, gay parents, single parents? Hopefully I misunderstood you, perhaps you’ll come back on and explain.

Thinking more about your repeated question regarding those who say it is a complete non-issue and I am a handwringing hysteric with nothing better to worry about - why are they being so aggressive and clamouring to slag me off (including with personal attacks about my sex life, now of course deleted)?

People with privilege tend to get angry and defensive when anyone suggests they change their behaviour to accommodate the less privileged. Straight people frothing at the suggestion they be less heteronormative, men outraged at the suggestion of women-only spaces, white people apoplectic that black people want reparations for slavery... the list goes on.

A question to derxa, and any other teachers out there- so you really do call each other “Mr Smith” and “Miss Jones” between yourselves in the staff room? I am sorry that i assumes you would not (see what assuming does?) as it just sounds so odd to me- “Would you like a biscuit with your tea Miss Brown?” “A digestive please Mr Chapman!”
Not exactly in that po-faced manner but slightly tongue in cheek. e.g. "How are you today, Mrs Brown? Did you have a good weekend?"
It's hard to describe unless you work in that environment. Honestly it happened in every school I worked in.

I have called it a non issue in the grand scheme of things but I've not made any personal attacks. I think if i felt so strongly i would reconsider my choice of school though. In my experience, many state schools will not make traditional assumptions as they usually deal with a broader range of people, which of course is better.

I have never worked in a school where teachers call each other by their title and surname. On occasion in front of students. We have a new deputy head who corrected a teacher who called him Bob - "it's Mr Smith actually" and we all (quietly) took the piss.

Jessie You're getting upset about one interaction with one independent school. Having sent both DCs to independent schools right through to 18 I know how people in my DCs schools interacted with parents. Formal unless corrected. The vast majority of the parents were Mr and Mrs X.

We have a new deputy head who corrected a teacher who called him Bob - "it's Mr Smith actually" and we all (quietly) took the piss. Yes I would too but that's not what I meant. It was done more as a joke. But I appreciate humour is thin on the ground in MN Land.

derxa I’m not getting “upset” about anything. I’m surprised that people are having such trouble understanding the meaning of the word “surprised”!

And sorry to labour the point but someone said upthread that teachers call parents “Mrs/Mr/Miss” because that’s what they call each other. I said that I imagined that they only called each other that in front of the children and you said I was wrong. Are you now saying that was a joke?

The thing about using formal titles is that it's actually only polite if you get the title correct. If you just address all female parents/guardians as Mrs Child'ssurname then you are making pretty sweeping assumptions which will inevitably end up with you using the wrong name or title for a parent before too long. And that's not polite formality, it's lazy generalisation.

Are you now saying that was a joke? No. I'm saying we called each other by our formal names in a joking manner.