to think that your female reproductive organs actually matter?

[Pamspeople]

Just read this on a Labour Party Facebook page. Am gobsmacked - the very few issues that pertain to having a vagina womb and ovaries ??? -

Feminist4 - I understand that you don’t mind changing with another transwoman.

But do you believe you have the right to consent for me and that I should be forced to change beside you and other trans women ?

Some of the language on there is terrifying in its delusion. Safeguarding policies are there for a reason. The presumption is there are people that will do harm. I don’t understand why it is so hard to grasp that self Id would give some of the men that want to do harm easier access. In many ways this point is nothing to do with individuals or even trans women themselves.

As for the comments about female biology not mattering I’m speechless.

the anti-trans hatred on MN is truly disgusting

God this is tiresome and pathetic rhetoric.

It isn’t anti-trans so suggest someone who was born male cannot speak for all women. They have no experience of the experiences of a biological woman.

It isn’t anti-trans to question the erosion of female spaces.

It isn’t anti-trans to be concerned about Self ID.

It isn’t anti-trans to think people with male physiology do not belong in female sports.

Well that's nice for you, but what if the young girl wasn't happy to do that though?

I have a 13 year old who is in the Guides. She is a normal 13 year old girl going through puberty, getting to grips with periods, body hair, growing boobs. We've all been through it and know what it's like. It's a tricky time for many girls and DD like many of her age is very self-conscious.

She would simply remove herself from any situation where a transgirl was present when she was changing or sleeping, or using the bathroom. Not because she's "transphobic", but because the presence of a male body would make her horribly uncomfortable. That would mean DD could miss out on being part of her netball team, swimming trips with her mates, guide camps and sleepovers. Her Muslim friend wouldn't be allowed to even go to Guides if there was a transgender Guide or guide leader.

My daughter's rights to privacy, dignity and the basic right to a single-sex space are disappearing, fast. It's not about "rights for transgender people" - they have rights already. Nobody should ever be abused or discriminated against because of how they look or what they wear. But women - and fuck right off with "cis" as I am not and will never be "cis" - are losing out here left, right and centre.

And nobody cares.

Read Animal Farm, this is what happened when the pigs took over.

The Labour Party have lost the plot. I will never vote for them again, not even in the local elections. They are rotten to the core.

There is no one to vote for. The UK is an utter disgrace of a country. A pathetic embarrassment.

Fuck you Labour Party and your weird misogynistic and anti Semitic shit.

@Feminist4

You are vilifying all trans people and denying them rights because of vicious crimes by a few people.

No, I'm vilifying the men who use a ruse to gain access to vulnerable women - men who are predators and will use any method available to gain access to women to hurt them, as is proven historically by men who pretend to be injured, men who pretend to be children to groom children on the internet, basically a man who pretends to be someone he isn't, or have something he doesn't, to lure a woman to a position where he can hurt her.
I'm questioning how the self ID law won't be misused by these men. And how such misuse can be prevented. Surely the misuse of the self ID is an issue for those fighting so hard for trans rights? To simply deny it's not a problem and shout bigot and transphobe at anyone who says it's a potential problem is what is causing the problem imo. It's like there's a total refusal to accept that predatory men even exist.
You are vilifying anyone who raises this point.
It isn't right. All people need protection from harmful violence, but you overestimate the numbers of 'men dressing up as women' and it is damaging trans people.
What isn't right? Asking how men who intend to misuse the self ID law for their own ends will be prevented from doing so? Why isn't that right? The alternative then is to just accept that it will happen and shut up about it? What happens when a transwoman is attacked by such a man? A man who says he identified as a woman to gain access to a transwoman and do her some harm? Will the trans community shrug then and say oh just one bad cookie, it's fine?

You are trashing them and their reputations as you lump them together and it's not acceptable. Even if you think you make a distinction, you aren't.

I clearly am making a distinction, as many on this thread are, but instead of saying "Yes, it's a potential issue for everyone, what can we do?" People like you are just shouting about bigotry and the trashing of reputations and shutting down any conversation.

What bothers me most is voyeurism. This is a huge issue. Sex segregated reduces the risk. But allowing self ID or pushing for unisex spaces increases it.
I'm less bothered about seeing a penis than I am by the thought of some pervert man having more opportunity to wank off to the sound of me weeing, plant cameras in the toilets or film under the door.
A quick Google shows how common a fetish this is for men.
Strangely I have never heard the only valid spokeswomen talk about how to reduce risk of voyeurism, even though it affects trans and cis women

F4, have you ever had to be DBS-checked? I have, many times. I know that I am not a danger to vulnerable people. I know that people who would harm children are a tiny minority of the population.

So why am I being lumped in with them? Insisting on DBS-checks is vilifying all adults who want to work with children and denying them rights because of the vicious crimes by a few people who want to work with children.

Yes QuentinWinters.

I have led a fairly uneventful life, and have been very lucky with the men I have met (mostly).

However, when I was at school a bloke installed a camera in the glass ceiling bit of the girls changing rooms. Apparently it was there for years and there was tonnes of footage. Imagine the effort he must have gone to to do that, the risks he must have taken before he was finally caught.

And for what? Some grainy footage of teenage girls tying themselves in knots to try and ensure that they didn't show off too much of their bodies as they undressed. Because most teenage girls are uncomfortable getting changed in front of other females, let alone males.

But yeah, let's let men 'self id' as women and have access to these spaces. No problem with that at all......

And yep, no one moans when they have to get DBS checked that they are being 'lumped in' with paedophiles and murderers.

Thanks for the explanation of cis

I’ve never heard anything more ridiculous in my life!

I will never use this phrase and I will never enter a debate or engagement with anyone who does.

Nuts!

This thread has got me thinking.

Could anybody imagine a situation where it was acceptable for a white man to represent any ethnic minority?

I was going to liken it to be a black and white minstrel pretending they know what its like to be black. But actually its 100x worse minstrels were pretending and never believed or were deluded that they were black.

Rachel Dolezal

She doesn't appear to want to disenfranchise people if colour, more to want to join them. In this way her behaviour seems closer to transexuals than to TRAs.

She seems also to have had a very disordered and traumatic childhood...

Could anybody imagine a situation where it was acceptable for a white man to represent any ethnic minority?

Yes Trevor Phillips, former chair of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission can. That's why he wrote an article for the Times. You know the one that this woman banned a lot of women from a Facebook group from sharing.

And given she's prepared to do that to stop people considering this is a risk, Im pretty I'm not alone in wondering why that bothers her so much...

The voyeurism is a big one.
We've all had an experience of some creepy man making us uncomfortable at some point in our lives, whether just not leaving us alone at the bar or staring or following us.
It's exactly that kind of man who is going to love self id. And they won't have to do anything - just go into the women's change rooms at the swimming pool and sit there with a towel over their lap, and watch.

Additionally, as someone else pointed out on here: no one gets to give consent for someone else.
Maybe you're happy to undress in front of a trans woman, but you can't override consent and force a 'yes' on all the women who are saying 'no'.

Not rtwt but surely issues pertaining to vaginias etc are the vast majority of reasons we need womens’ officers? We need advocates for

Period poverty
Maternity/birth injuries/PND care
Maternity leave / discrimination at work
Childcare costs, benefits etc as this is still mostly falling on women
Treatment for menopause

We've all had an experience of some creepy man making us uncomfortable at some point in our lives

This is it - for me, it's not the headline grabbing stories like the Karen Whites that makes me know that self-id will be abused, it's because me and every single woman I know has encountered at least one 'ordinary' man who would abuse self-id - a man who has perved, groped or behaved in some other vile way that made her feel unsafe or objectified.

And we develop an instinct, in order to bloody survive.

And for a while I repressed my instinct, because I truly want to be a good trans ally, and I have always been on the progressive side of politics, and have campaigned for lesbian and gay rights, and have always challenged gender stereotypes.

But my 'spidey senses' would just not stop telling me this is unsafe for women - and I feel so much better for listening to them, no matter what hassle it's brought me from people who aren't quite there yet.

Don’t be ridiculous. You are stigmatising trans people again. Scary men dressing as women - as if my trans daughter bears any resemblance to this. You scare-mongers. Your anti trans views are a disgrace.

Feminist4

Do you think transwomen should be allowed to access female sports?

Should transwomen be included in a miscarriage discussion group because to not do so is exclusionary?

Should someone requesting a female HCP have to accept a transwoman?

Why would a trans woman go to a miscarriage talk? If you treat them properly, they will live in peace too.

Why would a trans woman go to a miscarriage talk? If you treat them properly, they will live in peace too

I got abusive messages and threats on twitter for running a miscarriage discussion.

There was nothing pertaining to transwomen in the discussion. Several decided to join in and caused a hideous amount of upset.

Care to answer the other points?

Don’t be ridiculous. You are stigmatising trans people again. Scary men dressing as women - as if my trans daughter bears any resemblance to this. You scare-mongers. Your anti trans views are a disgrace.

Sex offenders including voyeurs will take full advantage to exploit any opportunities presented to them. We know this - it's why we have DBS checks and safeguarding policies. I really don't understand how pointing out the blindingly obvious in this case is stigmatising trans people.

The trans rights movement would make huge gains if they could recognise this and make suggestions how to address it, rather than telling women to shut up and not worry our pretty little heads.

A disgrace to what Feminist?

These views do not disgrace truth, or biology, or ovaries, or vaginas, or wombs.

They can fuck right off.

My mum had a hysterectomy and then died from a stroke - the blood clotting was linked to the operation. She was 42 - I had to grow up without a mother.

Just. Fuck. Off.