AIBU to feel a rage at how my voice is silenced and mocked? (trans thread)

[DonkeyHotei]

The trans threads on here pop up every day. The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls. But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause. But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear. You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include. You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

tl;dr

Most people in the Uk think self ID is ridiculous. You just have to look jus about anywhere on line or chat to anyone. Of course it is. That does not mean we do not support the current law and rights of people to change legally under the existing legislation.

(Janice Turner is on or just want on radio 4 world at one on this generatl topic by the way a moment ago)

I consider myself pretty well informed yes.

Less burdensome means self identification. As no one can ask to see a GRC in any of these situations anyway, what will happen is that any man can access any women’s space with no right of challenge.

It will mean the equality act will be unenforceable- remember ALL the laws that protect women due to sex were repealed and rolled into that law - if it goes, that’s it. No more women’s rights.

It will change the social norm. Right now nothing legally stops a man entering a women's space. What stops them is social convention. If self ID comes in, youbwill nonlonger be able to challenge a man entering a space like a gym changing room. Since you can’t ask for a GRC either, and you can’t challenge, the social norm will change - all women’s toilets, change rooms etc will be unisex. so no more swimming if you’re observant Muslim. Or orthodox Jewish. Or just don’t want to get changed next to someone with a penis.

It will render the definition of woman illogical and legally meaningless (this is what the ‘Adult human female’ billboards are about.) if that happens it will be impossible to exclude men from anything.

Women’s sports? Already under threat. Men already entering completions as women and winning.

Prisons? Half of all transwomen in prison are there for sex offences. They can now all be transferred to women’s jails - no more case by case decisions, they’re women now so in they go.

And on. And on.

Self ID is a terrible idea.

Nice try, but the problem for you is we are informed and we do know what ‘less burdensome’ will actually mean in practice. So you can stop your patronising.

Then tell me. Tell me exactly what it means in practice.

She can remove him/her for filming someone in a changing room

And yet when we ask transwomen to do similar if they feel threatened in the men’s the answer is that this is unacceptable.

So it’s unacceptable to us too. Safeguarding is supposed to prevent crimes before they happen, not provide redress afterwards.

On 13 March 1996, a man broke into a primary school and shot 16 people. As a result, there were tighter gun controls and security at primary schools around the country was increased.

Karen White slipped through the allegedly strict rules. Imagine if the rules were relaxed, how many more Karen Whites would get access to vulnerable women. (Let's face it, prison is about as vulnerable as you can be!)

Nobody on here says that trans people don't have human rights. GC feminists are asking questions like what rights do trans people not have which hasn't been answered by anyone. If the trans lobby were fighting for better mental health care and an end to bullying if you don't conform to gender norms then feminists would be standing with them. However the agenda is increasingly extremist and escalating fast.

If the trans lobby were interested in moderate people then they'd campaign for a third space and not insist that they take over women's spaces. I don't have gender dysphoria but I can imagine a trans woman might not want to be a man. Not a man does not mean a woman though. If the campaigning was about recognising transmen and transwomen as new categories then I think the TRA would have more support. However is no compromise in the actions of TRA and I feel that I have to stand up for woman kind. I am a woman (not a cis-woman) and I need to fight for the people who can't stand up.

In these arguments many trans allies forget that women aren't just the people who are our age so they think that sharing spaces are no big deal. While it's perfectly acceptable for women our age to fear penis' in their space, there are other females (younger and older than us) who are also vulnerable and need protecting. Even if you don't have kids, I bet that it's highly unusual if you'd be ok to change in the same room as a boy at age 13. You might be ok at your age now but you need to remember that other females need us to stick up for them.

I just outlined what it means in practice.

If men can be defined as women, they cannot be excluded from areas that need to be single sex to keep women safe.

Do you think it’s OK to lock rapists up with female prisoners? How about child abusers in a women’s prison with a mum and baby unit? Because that happened solely because of this. Those women were assaulted solely because of this.

It will change the social norm

Less burdensome means self identification. As no one can ask to see a GRC in any of these situations anyway, what will happen is that any man can access any women’s space with no right of challenge.

Less burdensome means you no longer have to have a doctor confirm that you have a mental illness to be awarded a GRC. Less burdensome means more trans people having a GRC, not fewer. How does this mean men will be able to access women’s changing rooms? This is not currently a widespread issue - what about a less burdensome process for obtaining a GRC means it suddenly will be?

It will change the social norm. Right now nothing legally stops a man entering a women's space. What stops them is social convention. If self ID comes in, youbwill nonlonger be able to challenge a man entering a space like a gym changing room.

Yes you will. None of the proposed changes include anything remotely close to disallowing you from from challenging a man entering a changing room.

It will render the definition of woman illogical and legally meaningless

Language adapts and we find new definitions to ensure that words are reflective of the reality of an ever changing world.

Women’s sports? Already under threat. Men already entering completions as women and winning.

Sporting institutions are and still will be allowed to make their own rules about who can enter, and this includes excluding trans women. In fact, some sports have banned non-trans women on the grounds that their natural testosterone levels are too high, giving them an unfair advantage. While this is hugely problematic in and of itself, it shows that your sex is not the be all and end all of how sporting bodies assess fairness in competition.

Prisons? Half of all transwomen in prison are there for sex offences. They can now all be transferred to women’s jails - no more case by case decisions, they’re women now so in they go.

Nothing about the proposed changes suggests prisons will no longer be able to assess where trans people should be housed on a case by case basis. Currently, being housed in a women’s prison doesn’t require you to have a GRC. It being easier to get a GRC does not mean case-by-case decisions will be disallowed. There is no suggestion that this will happen, and this is lazy, misinformed scaremongering.

This isn't project fear. Don't say we didn't warn you.

How does this mean men will be able to access women’s changing rooms? This is not currently a widespread issue - what about a less burdensome process for obtaining a GRC means it suddenly will be?

Currently only a few thousand go through the process of obtaining a GRC, making it easy and broadening the ‘trans umbrella’ as Stonewall has done means the number who will obtain one has the potential to increase quite a lot. In addition, as mentioned, social norms will change as women won’t be able to question males in their spaces.

womansplaceuk.org/julian-norman-in-house-of-lords/

Are you really OK with shop assistants, many of whom are young and female, being on the front line of "policing" men behaving inappropriately in changing rooms?

This is literally already the case though? When I was 17 and working a Christmas job in Debenhams I had to chuck out a man who was arsing around in the ladies changing room. Who else do you think does this ‘policing’?

Nothing about the proposed changes suggests prisons will no longer be able to assess where trans people should be housed on a case by case basis. Currently, being housed in a women’s prison doesn’t require you to have a GRC. It being easier to get a GRC does not mean case-by-case decisions will be disallowed. There is no suggestion that this will happen, and this is lazy, misinformed scaremongering

No it isn’t: Karen White.

This is literally already the case though? When I was 17 and working a Christmas job in Debenhams I had to chuck out a man who was arsing around in the ladies changing room. Who else do you think does this ‘policing’?

We all do. Again, social norms....

I wonder how many people on this thread are genuinely well-informed enough to know that self-ID isn’t about giving trans people any rights that they don’t already have, but is actually about making it less burdensome to acess those rights?

Self-ID destroys women’s rights by legally uncoupling ‘woman’ and ‘female’ from biology.

The reasons for maternity discrimination, the pay gap, period poverty etc etc are because of biology. Women’s biology. We need legal recognition of females as a biological class to fight for women’s rights.

Females cannot be a distinct biological class if any male can legally be a female by signing a piece of paper.

means the number who will obtain one has the potential to increase quite a lot. In addition, as mentioned, social norms will change as women won’t be able to question males in their spaces.

But you currently don’t need a GRC to use the women’s changing rooms so what does it matter if many more trans people get them? The law at the moment means you don’t need to show a GRC to use the changing room.

And women WILL still be able to question men being in their spaces. Non-trans women have been sharing spaces with trans women for nearly a decade and it hasn’t stopped them questioning men in their spaces. Why do you think this will suddenly change?

These arguments are so bizarre. It’s like you haven’t realised that the changes you’re so worried about came in in 2010 and have been in place since then.

Self-ID destroys women’s rights by legally uncoupling ‘woman’ and ‘female’ from biology.

This uncoupling took place years ago when it first became possible to obtain a GRC and yet here we are, still campaigning against the pay gap and maternity discrimination and period poverty and sexual harrasment.

so what does it matter if many more trans people get them?

If it’s easy to obtain it won’t just be trans people getting them! Have you been asleep or something while we’ve been discussing that very concern for months?! And trans now includes cross dressers, so yeah, I think it’s a big fucking deal that the numbers will increase and that what we have understood transgender to mean, now means much more. I have a huge problem with the definition of both transgender and woman changing without very much discussion at all- and many transsexual people agree with us on this!

The debate on self-ID is not a rerun of the debate on whether trans people should be able to obtain full legal recognition of their acquired gender. That ship sailed long ago.

still campaigning against the pay gap and maternity discrimination and period poverty and sexual harrasment

Yeah except now we have to say ‘ cervix-haver’ ‘menstruator’ ‘chest feeding’ and not talk to much about any of it in women’s groups in case it’s seen as exclusionary. Don’t even try and tell us how we campaign for our rights hasn’t changed or won’t change because of this because it has already and it’s only getting worse.

That ship sailed long ago

We’ll see about that....

If it’s easy to obtain it won’t just be trans people getting them! Have you been asleep or something while we’ve been discussing that very concern for months?!

don’t you see how contradictory your arguments are? YOU DON’T NEED A GRC TO ENTER A CHANGING ROOM, SO HOW DOES MAKING IT EASIER TO GET A GRC MEAN THAT CHANGING ROOMS WILL NOW BE FLOODED WITH PEOPLE OF THE OPPSITE GENDER?!

YOU DON’T NEED A GRC TO ENTER A CHANGING ROOM, SO HOW DOES MAKING IT EASIER TO GET A GRC MEAN THAT CHANGING ROOMS WILL NOW BE FLOODED WITH PEOPLE OF THE OPPSITE GENDER?!

Don’t fucking shout at me.

And it’s SEX not gender.

We’ve told you, pay attention. Social norms have already changed and they’ll change even more. If none of this matters, then why are we being told trans people will kill themselves if it doesn’t go through?

Yeah except now we have to say ‘ cervix-haver’ ‘menstruator’ ‘chest feeding’ and not talk to much about any of it in women’s groups in case it’s seen as exclusionary. Don’t even try and tell us how we campaign for our rights hasn’t changed or won’t change because of this because it has already and it’s only getting worse.

Oh really? #metoo is a sign that campaigning against sexual harassment is getting worse? Forcing the BBC and big companies to reveal their pay gap is a sign that campaigning on wage discrimination is getting worse?

And do you really expect me to believe that when we have the Tories defunding rape crisis centres and sure start centres, and rolling out UC which disproportionately harms women, and trump as president nominating a man who opposes abortion to the Supreme Court, the biggest threat to women’s rights is NHS campaigns saying ‘people with cervixes’ instead of ‘woman’?