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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to feel a rage at how my voice is silenced and mocked? (trans thread)

326 replies

DonkeyHotei · 21/10/2018 21:51

The trans threads on here pop up every day. The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls. But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause. But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear. You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include. You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

OP posts:
WitchyMcWitchface · 22/10/2018 14:51

Thanks @Vixxxy that was interesting

PerverseConverse · 22/10/2018 14:53

Bowlofbabelfish exactly. Crazy isn't it yet transpeople can have their gender recognised in law. I have never really considered my gender, I am just me: PerverseConverse, a woman who likes pink and sparkly things, can bake amazing cakes but knows her way round an internal combustion engine, has qualifications in mechanics and has a passion for military aircraft.

littlbrowndog · 22/10/2018 14:54

True vixxxy if I don’t feel like a gender then what am I ?

Blanchedupetitpois · 22/10/2018 14:54

Gender is the state of being male or female in respect of your innate sense of self, rather than by reference to your biology.

Some of you might be interested to know that Trump is considering redefining the word gender so that it explicitly relates to biological characteristics. Ever wonder if it’s maybe a bit telling Who your team mates are?

Vixxxy · 22/10/2018 14:56

Thanks Vixxxy that was interesting

About the links where legal experts all disagree on it?

docs.google.com/document/d/1b7viOWsx-Wgw344fujX3QddaJN8d4JKJoaVhyzMz1so/edit

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/19/gender-recognition-act-reforms-six-legal-views-transgender-debate

The links I posted back up thread for anyone who didn't see.

Its certainly not straightforward at all, and it does not seem to be only a small change that will only affect 'trans' people at all like transactivists like to claim. Its just another 'nothing to see here, hysterical women' type thing.

littlbrowndog · 22/10/2018 14:56

Naw Blanche I totally reject gender stereotypes.
Am just a woman
No innate stuff going on here

Blanchedupetitpois · 22/10/2018 14:57

I have to go to work (before I get accused of exiting stage right like OP was).

Let my parting shot be that you’re a decade too late to the debate you think you’re having. If it took you this long to wake up and notice the rights trans people have, perhaps you can take comfort from the fact that the impact on you was so negligible you didn’t even realise what was happening...

Vixxxy · 22/10/2018 15:00

Gender is the state of being male or female in respect of your innate sense of self, rather than by reference to your biology.

What do you mean by this? The state of being male or female is just the state of being male or female. I highly suspect most people do not have this internal sense of self. Not one person I have asked on this 'feels like a man/woman'. They just know they are a man/woman because of biology. I certainly do not have an internal sense of self in that way. I have no 'gender' at all if going on this internal essense.

Mind I do have a gender in the way I understand it. Being that gender is a mix of someones personality and what stereotypes they follow. Obviously I have a personality, everyone does. And I am a mix of all stereotypes, like everyone is really. So, I think gender is utter crap as everyone has their own distinct gender. Legally recognizing 7.5b 'genders' is impossible.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 22/10/2018 15:00

Right now OP some of my overriding concerns as a woman (as others have pointed out, not difficult to define), mother and daughter are:

If my mum has to go into a care home in the future she may be given intimate care by a staff member who is biologically male but self IDs as a woman and she had no right to object if this distresses her,
When my daughter wants to compete in sport she may find a young man beside her who self IDs as a girl who is very likely to beat her due to, er, biology, and my daughter has to accept that
women and children who are quite literally fleeing for their lives from abusive and violent partners/fathers may have to accept the presence of men who ID as women in a refuge

At this point in time if these concerns mean I'm on the wrong side of history then I'll make myself a cuppa and get comfortable because I'm not budging.

Vixxxy · 22/10/2018 15:02

Let my parting shot be that you’re a decade too late to the debate you think you’re having.

Not really, given transactivists have now decided that a measure put in place to help 3-5k transsexual people to have same sex marriage and equal pension rights..should now be extended to cover like 2m people.

The impact would be small if it was for so few people. With it becoming a LOT more people, it will not be small.

So again, not understanding your angle tbh.

RiverTam · 22/10/2018 15:02

so gender is feeling?

where else are feelings enshrined in law in this way?

Re Trump and the fact that the right are better on this than the left, I think that's something for the left to feel ashamed of, that the right, the US Christian far right and even bloody Trump might prove better at protecting women's rights that they are.

pennydrew · 22/10/2018 15:05

In other words, trans people getting GRCs has had so little real-life impact on you that you’ve been oblivious as to what it means for 13 years, but now that you’re aware you’re adamant that the right needs to be removed?

It has had real life implications, but mostly on other women. I listen to other women, do you? I’m thinking of female prisoners, I’m thinking of young autistic women like the one raped on a mental health ward by Karen White ( I have an autistic teen so it directly affects me actually ), I’m thinking of women in refuge or rape crisis who have to share spaces with male bodied people, I’m thinking of female athletes who have to unfairly compete against males... there are endless examples of how this has impacted women’s lives, but many of us have only been made aware of what the law was and how this is all possible, when we belatedly learn about it. Left wing women in particular are learning things slowly because our circles don’t dare discuss the concerns for fear of accusations of transphobia.

We discuss the examples of how this has affected women and girls all the time on MN so the above question/statement by you is kind of weird. The problem was and still is, awareness of actual law and knowing what we can do about it. It’s actually part of our point, that there has been a lack of discussion and a deliberate campaign to silence and ostracise any woman who won’t accept this.

Ereshkigal · 22/10/2018 15:13

Let my parting shot be that you’re a decade too late to the debate you think you’re having

No. We'll have it now, thanks.

BollocksToBrexit · 22/10/2018 15:15

It seems I'm also on the wrong side of history. My local pool only has male and female communal changing facilities. There are no cubicles and everybody has to shower naked before using the pool, because they've reduced the chlorine levels. There is no way I am stripping off completely in front of a biological male. Absolutely no way. I won't even do it in front of my husband. So why should I have to do it in front of a stranger? And I genuinely don't understand what part of that people don't get. They may be the nicest, unrapey person ever to have walked upon the planet, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't want to be naked in front of them because whatever they identify themselves as, I still identify them as men.

Ereshkigal · 22/10/2018 15:16

At this point in time if these concerns mean I'm on the wrong side of history then I'll make myself a cuppa and get comfortable because I'm not budging.

Indeed. Trite Twitter phrases and crass attempts to appeal to female socialIsation or shame me move me not one inch.

pennydrew · 22/10/2018 15:16

Yeah, I can have the debate whenever I want actually. We aren’t asking permission.

pennydrew · 22/10/2018 15:18

There is no way I am stripping off completely in front of a biological male. Absolutely no way. I won't even do it in front of my husband. So why should I have to do it in front of a stranger? And I genuinely don't understand what part of that people don't get. They may be the nicest, unrapey person ever to have walked upon the planet, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't want to be naked in front of them because whatever they identify themselves as, I still identify them as men.

I am so with you on this. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Wrong side of history because I won’t get naked with any male who has thoughts he believes are female? Wtf is even happening when we have to debate this.

OlennasWimple · 22/10/2018 15:26

I'm with pennydrew and BollockstoBrexit on the shower thing too

And guess what - most men (in the UK, anyway - I know things are different in different countries) don't want to shower naked in front of women either

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 22/10/2018 15:30

Wtf is even happening when we have to debate this.

Well put.

OlennasWimple · 22/10/2018 15:32

This is actually an interesting point. Could you get a gender recognition certificate if you wanted one? I expect it’s never been considered because nobody whose sex and gender correspond has ever sought one. From a legal standpoint this could be a fascinating question.

Do you understand the law as it is currently constructed (and therefore what would be changed with the proposals that would lead to self-ID)? Because if you did, surely you would know that at the moment a medical diagnosis of dysphoria is needed to be granted a GRC - and therefore anyone whose gender aligns with their sex wouldn't be eligible for one

Also an interesting question is non-binary people. The GRC currently only recognises 2 genders. I wonder if it will one day expand to recognise non-binary or agender people?

Did you complete the consultation? Because there was a question about this very issue

Hmm
Dragon3 · 22/10/2018 15:33

Gender is the state of being male or female in respect of your innate sense of self, rather than by reference to your biology.

Huh? Don't you mean 'masculine' and 'feminine'? A person's innate sense of self has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are male or female.

Polkasq · 22/10/2018 15:38

There are no male women or female men. Gender is a social construct, separate from one's unchanging biological sex.

Ereshkigal · 22/10/2018 15:39

I am so with you on this. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Wrong side of history because I won’t get naked with any male who has thoughts he believes are female? Wtf is even happening when we have to debate this.

This this this. Im not ever going to be "educated" out of feeling this way. I would feel humiliated and abused if it were forced on me. Certain people on this thread appear to have quite the empathy bypass when it comes to women. Which is quite surprising, them all being such completely excellent feminists.

NoodleEatingPoodle · 22/10/2018 15:49

Simple practical questions here, OP, no philosophical pondering required:

Do people born with female reproductive systems face (during childhood or adulthood) any forms of violence, discrimination, harmful/limiting stereotyping, or marginalisation, on the basis of belonging to the class of people who are born with a female reproductive system? Do they suffer any forms of oppression which are uniquely or disproportionately experienced by them?

If so, should there be a word to describe that group, one that distinguishes them from the dominant group (i.e. those born with a male reproductive system), so that they can be recognised in law as a group that's been disadvantaged, so that they can organise against their oppression, create safe spaces for their group, and keep track of their progress (political representation, pay gap stats, etc) and their continued vulnerability (male violence stats, etc)?

If a new orthodoxy emerges which means that there now is no word specifically to describe people born with a female reproductive system, that the word which used to describe them now describes - in society and in law - anyone at all who says so, and that therefore particular spaces, protections, and opportunities, all of which they fought for to redress the balance of the historical and ongoing oppression of their sex class, no longer exist specifically for them as a group, and will not exist for their daughters... Can you really, honestly, after thinking it through for a minute or two, not understand why some among that class of people might have concerns and questions about theverything new orthodoxy?

And why that concern might turn to anger when, along being told that they must accept the new orthodoxy, they are told that the redefinition of the word that used to describe them is an issue they have no stake in, there can be #nodebate, they should 'centre' the members of the dominant (male) class who wish to be described as women, but they themselves may not use the word 'women' or make any reference to their female reproductive biology when fighting for their right to contol their own female reproductive systems, or to end the mutilation of girls, or push back on the stigma, exclusion and expense that people like them are subjected to because they menstruate.

Also, even if they are lifelong feminists who have fought against the backward, misogynist idea that women should think, dress, and behave in a certain way because that's what it means to be a woman, they now must accept being described as 'cis', to signify that because they don't describe themselves as trans or nonbinary, they accept that what makes them a woman is nothing to do with their female reproductive biology, but their innate identification and comfort with the gender roles and expectations placed on women in their culture.

Oh, and if they are the slightest bit uncomfortable with any of these demands, they are hateful bigots who should die in a fire.

Come on, don't pretend you can't see sense when it's spelled out for you. This isn't about anyone being against 'trans rights'. This is about whether women have a right to express a view when the word that was used - including in safeguarding and equality legislation -to describe them (all of them, and only them), is redefined and used in such a way that it inhibits and obstructs progress toward a just society for women. Do you really think so little of women that you think they don't have any right to a view on that?

Dragon3 · 22/10/2018 15:51

YY Olennas. My DP has expressed this too. He doesn't want to share with women. Not a threatening situation for him, but undignified and lacking in privacy. He also has no wish to unintentionally make women feel uncomfortable.

What kind of a man would use mixed showers anyway? Not talking about predatory attackers, just men who know that some women will find this threatening.