AIBU to feel a rage at how my voice is silenced and mocked? (trans thread)

[DonkeyHotei]

The trans threads on here pop up every day. The overwhelming response from the Mumsnet Massive is that, in denying trans rights as human rights, they are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be abused by predators. And in virtually any other thread apart from those dealing with the complexities of a transgender identity, yes they are.... I'm really proud of the vehemence of the battle-hardened feminist warriors in taking a stance for the rights of women and girls. But when it comes to transgender issues, this site seems to stand in a world apart, because there is a hardcore contingent on here gleefully counting every one of the more moderate but less well informed folk they rally to their cause. But you ARE on the fringes if you go with this. You ARE denying the arguments that extremely well-informed people from FEMINIST ORGANISATIONS have considered long and hard: In Scotland, the reality is that feminist organisations support self-ID for a number of complex reasons. A statement from Engender, which included Close the Gap, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance, made that clear. You will ask me questions that are so infinitely complex that I'd be doing philosophical argument an injustice by trying to answer in a soundbite (I'll be asked, "What constitutes a women?"; I'll be told that I'm a traitor to the safety of women and girls. I am one and I have daughters.. Can i go for Bingo with this? First person who tells me I'm a scumbag and my view is invalid and damaging to the very people I am trying to protect: i.e., women, scores a bingo hit. I could bore on with the statistics of suicide and self-harm among the trans community, or I could get personal and tell you how it feels to lose a mother to the choice of taking one's own life. Horrific....I'd love to talk about it. You may bring out Karen and her foul predatory behaviour. And it's hard to come back from that one except to say she is a vile predator and I don't judge women by her benchmark. Include. Include. They are not "lady-dicks", they deserve not to be dead-named, Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria has no scientific basis...or if it does, please tell me? Include, include. You ARE on the wrong side of history on this one. I'm just a small person but thankfully I do have the weight of the better informed behind me.

The world has gone mad. It really has. I’m just stunned that we’re even having to have this conversation. That the rights of such a tiny minority trump those of half the population. It’s unbelievable.

People with cervixes - I ask you...

We’ll see about that....

So just to clarify, you’re looking to roll back rights that trans people have held for 8 years? That’s what your intention actually is?

Don’t fucking shout at me.

How about you don’t swear at me and I won’t use all caps on you?

If none of this matters, then why are we being told trans people will kill themselves if it doesn’t go through

Of course it matters! It matters hugely that trans people now won’t have to be diagnosed with a mental illness or provide a detailed account of their medical history in order to obtain legal recognition of their gender.

I never said it didn’t matter. I said that the concerns you’re raising are by and large rights that trans people already hold and which won’t be affected by self-ID

Started reading this in interest and noticed the OP didn't come back after bedtime last night. Nothing like causing an argument centre stage then waltzing off stage right

Nothing like causing an argument centre stage then waltzing off stage right

People have lives, you know. Maybe she’s at work?

So just to clarify, you’re looking to roll back rights that trans people have held for 8 years? That’s what your intention actually is?

My intention is to maintain women’s rights and boundaries. Most women had no idea about GRC before this or what it meant, or how it became law. Now some of us do, we must inform others.

the biggest threat to women’s rights is NHS campaigns saying ‘people with cervixes’ instead of ‘woman’?

Don’t patronise me. There are many threats. Forced changes in language used to describe us, is absolutely a problem. It is dehumanising to describe women by what functions their bodies perform. We have a name and I won’t lie down and accept men changing words without our consent.

It’s amazing women have to wait 11 years for an endometriosis diagnosis ( on avg ) for a clearly identifiable disease, a material observable reality... but we spend all this time and money on subjective feelings which are somehow giving males the right to invade our spaces and take our positions.

In case anyone has missed this:

medium.com/@kathleenstock/womens-place-talk-full-text-house-of-lords-oct-10th-2018-b1f3d70c4559

Of course it matters! It matters hugely that trans people now won’t have to be diagnosed with a mental illness or provide a detailed account of their medical history in order to obtain legal recognition of their gender.

I’d be quite happy for people to obtain legal recognition of their gender. So long as it is clear that gender is not sex.

So just to clarify, you’re looking to roll back rights that trans people have held for 8 years? That’s what your intention actually is?

Yes Blanch, that is absolutely the intention of many on Mumsnet. Six or so months ago many of them were happy to openly say so and to devote whole threads to discussing such a repeal, but I assume that didn't look too good from a PR point of view so it's all but dried up now.

I do very much hope that everyone involved in this steps back every now and then and considers the end game; how far will be far enough? It's all well and good to talk about "boundaries", but if we don't put firm boundaries in place regarding what is morally and ethically right before we get swept along with emotive claims from well-practiced voices, any one of us can end up n very murky waters indeed.

Most terrible things in history were done to one group in the name of doing right by another. It's easy to go too far.

People have lives, you know. Maybe she’s at work?

Probably best not to start goady threads that you don't engage with then.

so what does it matter if many more trans people get them?

Making the process literally just filling out a bit of paperwork, means anyone can do it. Its not just transsexual people any more. When the act was brought in it was estimated it would help 3-5k people. Just under 5k people have a GRC now. Its working exactly as it was intended to. Do you think that it would have passed at all if lawmakers were told that it would be 500k-2m people (estimated people identifying as 'trans' today. Not transsexuals) rather than 5k? I don't.

So just to clarify, you’re looking to roll back rights that trans people have held for 8 years?

See the thing is, the GRC was brought in following a court case where a transsexual woman was not able to marry someone of the same sex. It was a bridging kind of thing, whilst we did not have same sex marriage. It was also about equal pension rights. We now have equal marriage, and equal pension rights. So, whats the point in it now?

If it is true that it changes nothing else as you claim. Then surely its completely obsolete now. So whats wrong with repealing it? Given the reason that it was made, is no longer relevant anyway?

Most women had no idea about GRC before this or what it meant, or how it became law. Now some of us do, we must inform others.

In other words, trans people getting GRCs has had so little real-life impact on you that you’ve been oblivious as to what it means for 13 years, but now that you’re aware you’re adamant that the right needs to be removed?

Honestly I couldn’t have invented a more perfect illustration of the anti-trans movement than this.

It is dehumanising to describe women by what functions their bodies perform

And yet you insist upon this, over and over and over. You are the ones defining women by their genitals.

It’s amazing women have to wait 11 years for an endometriosis diagnosis ( on avg ) for a clearly identifiable disease, a material observable reality... but we spend all this time and money on subjective feelings which are somehow giving males the right to invade our spaces and take our positions.

How is endometriosis research compromised by organisations like stonewall campaigning for trans rights? What’s the link here?

Also - part of the reason it takes so long to get a diagnosis of endometriosis is that it’s incredibly difficult to diagnose, requiring an invasive operation. Of those who have that operation, 53% don’t have any scarring. I’m not saying it’s ok that it takes so long and I think this is a serious issue, but it’s sensible to acknowledge the complexity of that specific disease. And I have endometriosis, so it’s not like I don’t know how frustrating the situation is.

Gender is a feeling in the mind. Can anyone think of another feeling that requires legal recognition? And can anyone else think of another feeling in the mind that requires a complete shift in reality that wouldn't be classed as a mental health condition?

Six or so months ago many of them were happy to openly say so and to devote whole threads to discussing such a repeal, but I assume that didn't look too good from a PR point of view so it's all but dried up now.

Deary me Rat. It's not a hive mind. We're not thinking about "PR". There are people in FWR who think the GRA is an outdated and poor piece of law that should be repealed. Other people disagree. No one is afraid to discuss it.

blanche what is your understanding of lowering testosterone and Male competitive advantage? Do you think that a man with the testosterone levels of anwoman is not at a competitive advantage? If so how?

Language adapts and we find new definitions to ensure that words are reflective of the reality of an ever changing world.

The definition of woman hasn’t changed. It’s adult human female. The science hasn’t changed. The biological, observable reality of sex hasn’t changed. So what changes in reality are you talking about?

Probably best not to start goady threads that you don't engage with then.

She started it yesterday. Exactly how many days of annual leave should one take before they start a thread on MN?

And this is absolutely no more goady than any other trans thread on MN.

You are the ones defining women by their genitals.

No we are not. We are members of the female sex class. Adult human females. Women. It isn't hard.

She started it yesterday.

She made a couple of posts and went to bed.

I’d be quite happy for people to obtain legal recognition of their gender. So long as it is clear that gender is not sex.

This is and always has been clear

In other words, trans people getting GRCs has had so little real-life impact on you that you’ve been oblivious as to what it means for 13 years, but now that you’re aware you’re adamant that the right needs to be removed?

But that was about 5k people. A 100-400x increase would be disastrous. It was restricted to those who actually have gender dysphoria. Now thats being proposed to be removed. What reason could there possibly be for removing the diagnosis part of it? Except for that those pushing for this change, do not have gender dysphoria.

If it is true that it changes nothing else as you claim. Then surely its completely obsolete now. So whats wrong with repealing it? Given the reason that it was made, is no longer relevant anyway?

This.

This is and always has been clear

No it isn't. At all.