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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what people are afraid of with a People's Vote?

832 replies

Bearbehind · 21/10/2018 17:36

Estimates reckon there were nearly a million people at the Peoples Vote march yesterday so support for it is high.

Why is it such a threat to others though?

If you're so convinced Leaving is the right thing to do for the country, why wouldn't you want that to be endorsed now people have a clearer idea of what is to come?

Or is it that you're worried Leave would now lose as it's been made clear there are no upsides?

In which case why do you want to go ahead with it anyway?

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 24/10/2018 09:09

Yes they do, and you have made my point, but people/posters do not have to engage with people that are being nasty, and pretty much every brexiter stepped away from the keyboard and didn't engage.

boney that excuse is tired and boring.

There are Leavers on here now, including you, who engage in discussions but still don't elaborate further than soundbites or sarcasm.

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BoneyBackJefferson · 24/10/2018 09:14

Bear

Yet it is still valid. boring though you may find it. and it was a response to someone that questioned it, so a valid response.

Yes leavers are on here as are many remainers who complain about leavers not elaborating, unless you can give a definitive response that giving something other than a soundbite (can't see the point of the sarcasm and I am beginning to believe that "we won" is just people trolling) won't result in a massive pile on then leavers won't fully engage.

And FYI, I wouldn't actually mind a vote on the final deal but it would have to be more than a vote that split the leavers and was bias towards remain.

Bearbehind · 24/10/2018 09:17

I am beginning to believe that "we won" is just people trolling

I wish that we're true but the more I read the more I conclude there are still large numbers of people who genuinely think that's all it was about and that's all that matters.

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Moussemoose · 24/10/2018 09:22

BoneyBackJefferson so people knowingly do something that will have serious implications. People become distressed and upset. Brexit supporters don't like the face of their decision. They don't want to listen to or engage with the upset they have caused. So they back away from the keyboard.

Pretty much every Brexiter stepped away from the keyboard. They don't have to engage with this distress so why should they?

You put forward this example of cowardice as some form of mitigation?

Bearbehind · 24/10/2018 09:25

The 'piling on' point is a natural result of the situation though.

Take just 2 examples from today last night.

One poster says 'staying in the EU was not financially sensible' but doesn't elaborate further.

Another says the EU we're not benevolent wrt Greece, then goes on a sarcasm spree to avoid adding detail to that comment.

The reality is they have no more detail.

The first poster cannot put forward a case for why staying in the EU would have worse financial consequences than we face by leaving.

The second poster cannot explain what the EU should or could have done differently wrt Greece.

The latter astounds me the most as we were one of the biggest players in the EU during the Greece crisis, yet our biggest concern was ensuring epwe didn't have to cop for any more bail outs.

It's easy to speculate on how others should spend their money to support those in need whilst keeping your hands firmly in your pockets.

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10degreestostarboard · 24/10/2018 10:06

Bearbehind

The remainer position is to know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I’m still waiting to hear why the uk having an indefinite future with an eu superstate is a good thing.

You may well consider yourself an eu citizen: I don’t.

Bearbehind · 24/10/2018 10:10

10 the EU superstate is a figment of your imagination, however
I don't think any Remainer ever thought the EU was perfect but we felt it would be better t shape it's future from within and retain the benefits of membership.

Now over to you - what should and could the EU have done about Greece and why, as we were one of the biggest influencers of any action, did it not happen?

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BoneyBackJefferson · 24/10/2018 10:16

Moussemoose

Maybe leavers would take ownership if the discussions were civil.

Nobody has to put up with abuse either online or in real life, that is the mitigation for not engaging. It is after all what we tell children when they are suffering from name calling at schools.

I would put forward hiding behind a computer screen and hurling abuse at someone as a form of cowardice.

But we are in danger of derailing the thread.

10degreestostarboard · 24/10/2018 10:17

Bearbehind

David Cameron tried to change the EU immediately before the referendum. Remember how successful that was?

Google is your friend if you wish to learn more about the EU superstate and the plight of Greece.

Childrenofthesun · 24/10/2018 10:21

David Cameron tried to change the EU immediately before the referendum. Remember how successful that was?

David Cameron was actually given almost everything he was asked for: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105

Childrenofthesun · 24/10/2018 10:22

Sorry, almost everything he asked for.

Moussemoose · 24/10/2018 10:30

I think you are being more than slightly disingenuous now with the claims of 'abuse'.

Both sides behaved badly the 'we won you lost now shut up" rhetoric was also very offensive.

It was not quite as one sided as you are suggesting.

Most remainers repeatedly ask for 3 good reasons or one way you life will be better. The responses are laughable when faced with the massive list of negatives. Take the post below about the "EU superstate" hyperbole and nonsense based on no evidence. In the face of this kind of nonsense being polite is difficult!

The vast majority of remainers repeatedly and politely ask the same questions and no one will reply because some posters said they were thick.

Bearbehind · 24/10/2018 10:31

10 I don't care what Google says about Greece, I'd like to know why our think it's relevant to this discussion.

Why do you think the position of the EU over Greece is a reason to leave?

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Bearbehind · 24/10/2018 10:33

boney I have noticed your posts are generally just to complain about the way Leavers are spoken to.

Have you read this thread?

Have you seen the way 10 speaks to people?

How goady and sarcastic s/he is in order to avoid actually answering any questions?

Then we get the old faithful 'google it'.

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bellinisurge · 24/10/2018 10:35

"Abuse"? What a childish and ridiculous position to take about genuine and thoroughly reasonable concerns about food supply and medicine supplies. About peace in Northern Ireland. About the risk to our border (NAO report).
Making out that you are a victim instead of addressing concerns? Pathetic.

Maidsrus · 24/10/2018 10:38

10
Benefits of being in the EU-

1 frictionless trade
2 freedom of movement both ways
3 collaboration and investment in science, crime prevention etc
4 collaboration in big issues like employment protections and global warming
5 influence and allies

We’re the 5th or 9th biggest economy in the world, depending on which measure you use. We’ve done this in the EU. We are taking huge risks by leaving, are we more likely to go up that league table or down?

bobbywash · 24/10/2018 10:44

Ok why is staying in the EU a good thing:-

Trade is becoming more global, that's not a suggestion or an idea it's a fact. Countries that supply goods and services get better trade with their immediate neighbours from being in trade blocks, unless you a huge country with a vast population that can supply and manufacture all your own needs. No country falls in to that category but some e.g. Russia and USA have more resources than most.

So here's a bit of a background to why in the first place - this will drone on so apologies. To be able to properly compete with those countries you need to have a similar leverage in the market place, this is easily achieved by drawing up agreements with your neighbours to help you negotiate with those bigger countries.

Similarly your neighbours may be brilliant and making cars, but not so good at the financial side of thinks, or farming for example. So what you do is sign an agreement that allows your goods and services to be traded with theirs. You also notice that you are both pretty good at producing steel and aircraft. So what you do is have an agreement that makes sure the other country can't have an advantage over you in steel by paying their own producers more money to make the steel more profitable for them.

Hence you have harmonisation over the laws that govern farming, steel production, the rights of workers allowing your specialists in banking to go abroad to work in their country and their skilled car engineers to come to yours.

This gives more strength when negotiating deals with other countries. Now admittedly the stronger you are the more you can negotiate deals to your advantage and that is what the EU does, hence the wealth of trade agreements opening up our export markets in our strong points to other countries. You carry on improving the rules for trade between you, whilst still allowing the governments to make their own laws and to run their own economies. This means that within the trade bloc you are a member of, you have free access to those markets with which you can do the easiest trade. You use your collective power to negotiate trade deals with other countries, and stop the bigger countries from bullying you (have you looked at American food standards - ye goods they're horrifically bad).

You vote for representative to go and make laws to protect your position. You carry on refining the process so that within your bloc you have equality. That's where we are now.

So staying in, we are part of one of the biggest trading blocs in the world, we have the power to negotiate with any other country or group of countries.

The bloc we are in will continue to subsidise the areas of the country that we forget about by investing in infrastructure and supporting projects. We pay less to be a member of this block than we could do having to do all this ourselves, we don't have to negotiate with countries that are bigger and more powerful than us (and if anyone sees how trump is behaving take heed). We get a say in the future direction it takes, and can opt out of bits we don' like (Schengen).

It also helps to ensure peace with your neighbours.

Those are the advantages in a simple format. There are no advantages to leaving - none at all.

Moussemoose · 24/10/2018 11:00

Remainers responding politely in detail despite people being rude to them.

Any Brexiters want to return the favour?

mostdays · 24/10/2018 11:25

You may well consider yourself an eu citizen: I don’t.

Fact is that at present, you are.

Mrsr8 · 24/10/2018 12:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BoneyBackJefferson · 24/10/2018 12:23

bellinisurge

I haven't said that NI isn't a concern I am saying that the language used when this started/and continued was abusive and that is the reason why posters are not coming back to the threads. so as for "pathetic" read what I have written and stop with the name calling.

I repeat this in the hope that the posters always going on about why do leavers not engage take note.

OatsBeansBarley · 24/10/2018 12:27

Tony Benn used to repeat the lines about asking who has the power over you and then most importanly asking can how can you get rid of them.

Telling people as a "gotcha" that they have become citizens of the European Union by default (populace should have chance to vote on Maastricht maybe?) And thinking of this as a buttress to a pro membership position leaves me flummoxed.

bellinisurge · 24/10/2018 12:30

This is not abuse. Don't be silly.

Bearbehind · 24/10/2018 12:32

that is the reason why posters are not coming back to the threads

There are plenty of Leave supporters on these threads, many of whom are very rude and sarcastic and none of whom can elaborate on their comments beyond rhetoric and soundbites.

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10degreestostarboard · 24/10/2018 12:33

Oats beans barley

Absolutely!