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Original poster

Trans and third space?

558 replies

Teachtolive · 20/10/2018 12:05

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

OP posts:
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7
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/10/2018 19:15

Loads of posters talk about refuges sport, womens awards
Land other posters keep bringing it back to toilets

Its weird

Or is it because you ( royal you obs Wink) can only argue that point

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:16

Everyone needs to be heard and feel safe, give and take has to happen. Equality isn't reached by dictating things to others.

SmileEachDay · 20/10/2018 19:16

East

Toilets are an illustration of the wider issue - shorthand for “women’s spaces” - easily sorted out by well designed secure unisex spaces. Other sexexemptions are much more of an issue - refuges, some medical facilities and procedures, carers, prisons, the Guides, sport...the list goes on.

Self ID makes it impossible to prevent any Tom, Dick or Harry entering them.

Bowlofbabelfish · 20/10/2018 19:17

I’m arguing that self ID should not happen

It opens up all spaces to be unisex. This has anumber of concerns.

  1. Many religious women will not be able to use that space. - so where are they going to go to the loo? Or change? Will their smear test and mammogram uptake drop? Will they just retreatfrom public life?
  1. Men as a class are a danger to women, and if self ID goes through it removes the social norm that a man is not present in the space. With that social norm people can challenge. Without they can’t.
  1. We don’t want men in women’s spaces, and us saying no should be enough. A woman saying no is not the start of a negotiation

So easternedge - what do you say to the Jewish or Muslim women who now can’t swim in Hampstead ponds? Because instead of the great solution of men’s, women’s and mixed (catering for all) there are now three ponds men can go and none that they can use?

SmileEachDay · 20/10/2018 19:18

in the mean time discussions need to happen

I agree. I don’t have that much faith that the right people will be included in those discussion.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 19:19

Or is it because you ( royal you obs wink) can only argue that point

Oh lordy, I can argue any damn point! It's actually because I'm kind of in the market for solutions, and that's generally easier achieved by taking one aspect of a conundrum at a time rather than the constant focus-shifting "yeah, but what about..." or endlessly demanding "what IS a woman anyway??".

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/10/2018 19:20

Or is it because you ( royal you obs wink) can only argue that point

Should have clarified that my post of 19:15 was for east

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 19:23

No worries Rufus, I just want to see if we can't strike at least something off the "trans worry" list before I die!

Original poster
Teachtolive · 20/10/2018 19:26

I'm kind of in the market for solutions,

THIS! This was why I posted the question in the first place, to see if there were any solutions and to educate myself a bit. Turns out the only thing I've learned is that you really CANT start a thread with the word 'trans' in it without starting a shit storm on this site.

OP posts:
CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:26

This whole thing would have been taken much better if stonewall wasn't doing this "no debate" thing and discussed it with people who are worried.
It's such a weird way of going about things.

easternedge · 20/10/2018 19:28

So easternedge - what do you say to the Jewish or Muslim women who now can’t swim in Hampstead ponds? Because instead of the great solution of men’s, women’s and mixed (catering for all) there are now three ponds men can go and none that they can use?

I would say to them they have probably been sharing spaces with trans women for years. I would say to them where do they think the trans women are currently bathing/ changing/ washing/ swimming / shitting. I would also point out that both of those religions preach tolerance and kindness. I would wonder what these women do when they have to be admitted to hospital given he nhs has long allowed self id.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:28

The thing is rat you are probably as tired of this as everyone else, it's not your job to find solutions is it.
I appreciate the discussion though but you have to agree the no debate thing is creating tension and hate where there was none because people are getting more and more worried.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/10/2018 19:29

Goidness

Apparently i need to point out that my post of 19.20 was in no way shape or form an apology to any random on the thread that thought it may have been directed to them

I have made my personal opinion of not being worried by a transwomen in the toilets very clear on just about every thread that mentions toilets!

Even im bored of saying it Grin

SmileEachDay · 20/10/2018 19:29

Teach why is that the only thing you’ve learned?

Lots of posters have offered opinions.

Yeah, too right Captain, Stonewall have been utter twunts and have sold lesbians down a very long and shitty river.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/10/2018 19:30

This whole thing would have been taken much better if stonewall wasn't doing this "no debate" thing and discussed it with people who are worried. It's such a weird way of going about things

Absolutely!!.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:31

easternedge
Answers like that don't really help do they as they don't match up with the worry and reality of what people feel.

Chalkhillblu3 · 20/10/2018 19:32

Going back to third space, in India you have hijra and in Thailand kathoey. They are considered a third category.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:32

"Are religion is sex segregated"

Well doesn't it preach.lobe and acceptance?

It's not really a solution.

easternedge · 20/10/2018 19:33

So I'm supposed to offer an answer that isn't what I think and instead focus on what I think might make people feel better?

No clue what you mean. Genuinely.

Chalkhillblu3 · 20/10/2018 19:33

That's why I don't get the whole Are Women thing, from the very same people who bang on about gender being fluid

Original poster
Teachtolive · 20/10/2018 19:33

SmileEachDay you're right. I was being a bit reductionist there. Initially people did actually offer some valid points. But it does seem that discussion on trans issues can't take place without it turning nasty here.

OP posts:
CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:33

I'll try that again:

"Our religion is sex segregated"

"Doesn't it preach love and acceptance?"

easternedge · 20/10/2018 19:34

And I'm going to also gently suggest that the worry people feel doesn't match up with the actual reality of what self id will mean.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:34

No clue what you mean

That's understandable I've mangled it badly.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:35

I'm going to also gently suggest that the worry people feel doesn't match up with the actual reality of what self id will mean.

Why isn't this being discussed and why are people not being reassured?

The no debate thing is causing this worry and anger.