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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Trans and third space?

558 replies

Teachtolive · 20/10/2018 12:05

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Datun · 20/10/2018 19:36

I'm totally up for facilties being improved with more consideration for female needs, hell to the yes, that's the Feminism I've been campaigning for for donkey's years!

Sure. You work on getting every female space segregated on the basis of only being used by one person at a time.

And in the meantime, I want to stop men accessing women.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 19:37

Am I not supposed to respond to anything you write Rufus that isn't specifically aimed at me Confused I don't really know if I can stick to that tbh, sometimes you just post things I have something to say about! But I'll try not to if it's upsetting you.

However this whole "no debate" thing started, here we all are having the debate. Thank fuck. Hopefully we can get some UK facilities to meet the needs of their natal female AND their trans users in the process.

OP, aside for the usual shit storm, are you any clearer on the issues surrounding third spaces? Do you think the same outcome for women could be achieved by compelling facilities to make the smaller effort of upgrading existing facilities?

SmileEachDay · 20/10/2018 19:37

without it turning nasty here

Where has it turned nasty?

easternedge · 20/10/2018 19:38

*hy isn't this being discussed and why are people not being reassured?

The no debate thing is causing this worry and anger.*

Fair point. Some open guidance on this from a trans perspective would have been awesome.

Disagree with the way both stonewall and other pro women websites have steered how to answer the consolation as well.

easternedge · 20/10/2018 19:39

Or an organisation like stonewall etc

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:40

Yes, there's no impartial information anywhere.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:41

We needed debate to extract facts, but we didn't get any, so we were left with the extreme ends.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 19:41

And in the meantime, I want to stop men accessing women.

Bizarre, in my opinion, to think the best outcome for women is to make a world where half of the population are protected FROM the other. Better in my view to fight for a world which is safe and accessible for ALL people - NOT JUST MEN - and to take better account of women's needs. That's always been MY feminism. Make a world where women's needs are catered to, particularly the need for increased safety measures, EQUALLY as much as men's are.

Original poster
Teachtolive · 20/10/2018 19:42

OP, aside for the usual shit storm, are you any clearer on the issues surrounding third spaces? Do you think the same outcome for women could be achieved by compelling facilities to make the smaller effort of upgrading existing facilities?

Definitely clearer on the first part (although not in agreement with everything but that's life). To the second part, as it pertains to things like toilets and changing rooms, yes. It does still leave the issues of things like sports and refuges outstanding though.

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/10/2018 19:42

Where has it turned nasty?

Im curious as well smile

Compared to lots of similar threads this is going swimmingly!

Well...ok

ThePrincipal · 20/10/2018 19:42

You don’t hear about trans men wanting to go into male prisons or changing rooms or male sports competitions.

This is a one way street.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:43

Jonathan Bests petition was asking for discussion from stone wall, but the reply was just "no debate".
Maybe there's time to get them to understand why debate is important?

ThePrincipal · 20/10/2018 19:44

I said that in reference to

‘Trans people (obvs not all) want to use the sex segregated spaces of the sex they identify as, as a way of validation.
That’s why it wouldn’t work.’

Upthread.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/10/2018 19:44

Definitely clearer on the first part

I would be very happy with third spaces where possible and /or proper sex neutral spaces

Otherwise male and female would have to do

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 19:44

It does still leave the issues of things like sports and refuges outstanding though.

Yes, absolutely. There just so much to cover to be able to address all the issues in one go.

ThePrincipal · 20/10/2018 19:45

The no debate is because they know that their arguments holds no water and is complete non sense conflating sex and gender.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 19:46

The thing is middle ground will be reached, just not how things are currently playing out, it's not the activists who will reach it, it's people talking.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 19:47

Right, well its been fun, thanks for the thread OP; you've helped me come to a new view on the whole issue of third spaces (in the context of shared physical spaces, like changing rooms etc.) that I'm keen to explore and promote further. Thank you for that.

But for now... beer! I'll get 'em in, place your orders at the bar.

Bowlofbabelfish · 20/10/2018 19:58

I would say to them they have probably been sharing spaces with trans women for years. I would say to them where do they think the trans women are currently bathing/ changing/ washing/ swimming / shitting.

No that’s not good enough. That’s telling them to put up with it - religious belief is a protected characteristic under the equality act. Those women know that sometimes men have been in their facilities - we all know. Most of us are just too polite to point it out or too afraid to. We aren’t there in blissful ignorance you know, we are there warily sizing up if this man is a threat. And for the Muslim or Jewish woman that space is now not one they feel they can be in.

Women are already feeling horribly uncomfortable in healthcare situations- women are already not going swimming at Hampstead. A ‘nur nur, they’ve been there all along!’ Approach is disgraceful.

So, you’re in front of a Muslim women’s swimming group telling them they can no longer swim. Anywhere. Ever. What do you say to them?

easternedge · 20/10/2018 20:13

Are you winding me up? So you're saying that these women know that's true I'm just not supposed to say it out loud?

JacquesHammer · 20/10/2018 20:15

I would say to them they have probably been sharing spaces with trans women for years

I’ve never played against or with a transwoman

easternedge · 20/10/2018 20:16

And what does 'nur, nur' mean?

I am genuinely sorry for any woman who feels so extremely scared about males in their spaces. I cannot change the reality of life, however, and for you to accept that what I am saying is true but to be outraged that I have said it is bizarre to tell you the honest truth.

easternedge · 20/10/2018 20:17

I take it you are referring to sport @JacquesHammer ... this is one of two areas where I am far less certain in my feelings. Trans women in sport is clearly unfair.

The thread, as far as I was aware, was not about that.

JacquesHammer · 20/10/2018 20:20

The thread, as far as I was aware, was not about that

If only “sporting events” had literally been mentioned in the OP, rendering it a valid point in the discussion.