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Original poster

Trans and third space?

558 replies

Teachtolive · 20/10/2018 12:05

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

OP posts:
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7
JacquesHammer · 20/10/2018 18:32

When I wanted to start playing contact sport, we were told “go away until you have enough players for a team and opposition”.

Why isn’t it acceptable to say that to transwomen?

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 18:33

They're already there. Have been for decades. Please point me to all the women who cared before this whole thing kicked off?
Once again Self ID has created an atmosphere where there used to be a respectful balance.

IcedPurple · 20/10/2018 18:34

Please point me to all the women who cared before this whole thing kicked off?

I can honestly say I've never seen a male body in a female space but if I did, I would definitely care. So would every woman I know.

SmileEachDay · 20/10/2018 18:34

east

I’m not wrong. The proposed new system will simply require self declaration and all documents, including birth certificate, will be changed to reflect the chosen sex.

Plus, self ID will create a climate where women are accused of hate speak for stating that women don’t have penises, and that penises don’t belong in X, Y, Z space. Hell, that’s already happening.

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:34

We would all have the option of the third space then?

Well exactly. Retain sex segregation for women (and men) who want, or need it. Have a third option for those who don't mind, or who don't fit the category.

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 18:34

Where are all these non passing MTFs who have been using women's spaces for decades? I haven't seen any. If you pass, obviously no one would know. Which is a tiny minority.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 18:35

What would those be then?

You're right, surely no-one could dream up any hurdles to installing a whole third space option in every single venue and facility that currently offers mens and womens. Nope, can't think of anything at all... except maybe money. And space. And the absence of a willing customer for such spaces. And, well, the absence of any apparent need, beyond some newly found distaste from some women to continue with the current arrangement.

Can't for a second think what the hurdles might be.

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 18:37

Yes, they cost money. Equality adjustments often do. But not really "unworkable", though? A teensy exaggeration.

JacquesHammer · 20/10/2018 18:38

You're right, surely no-one could dream up any hurdles to installing a whole third space option in every single venue and facility that currently offers mens and womens

We had to do it for women...

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/10/2018 18:38

Disabled toilets managed it.

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:39

Well people thought about disabled spaces. That it wasn't necessary. It would be too expensive.

IcedPurple · 20/10/2018 18:41

I really don't see why - or how - every venue, no matter how small or strapped for cash, should have to build special facilities to indulge under 1% of the population.

How about men use men's facilities and women use women's? And yes, before you ask, I mean biological men and biological women. There are no other kinds of men or women.

easternedge · 20/10/2018 18:42

@SmileEachDay

Do you have a link? Either you or the writer for the herald is wrong and I'd like to be sure before I keep debating with people 

How would you police this though @Datun ... how can you realistically stop a trans woman or trans man using the single sex spaces. How do you make them use the third space?

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 18:43

We had to do it for women...

Um... no. Unless you think your local shopping centre or swimming pool complex dates back to the Victorian era.

easternedge · 20/10/2018 18:43

@IcedPurple I feel so sorry for you.

pancaketosser · 20/10/2018 18:44

Unisex spaces could be used by:

  • Transpeople
  • Non-binary people
  • Mothers with sons
  • Fathers with daughters
  • All the people who have no problem whatsoever with mixed spaces (which is apparantly most of the population so great!)

Sex-segregated spaces are wanted throughout the world. Unisex spaces would not be othering or akin to segregation, as there is no more segregation than what is currently in place.

JacquesHammer · 20/10/2018 18:44

Unless you think your local shopping centre or swimming pool complex dates back to the Victorian era

Well they both do, sooooo Wink

IcedPurple · 20/10/2018 18:45

@IcedPurple I feel so sorry for you.

Aint that adorable.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 20/10/2018 18:46

I really don't see why - or how - every venue, no matter how small or strapped for cash, should have to build special facilities to indulge under 1% of the population.

It's hardly indulging them, is it; they're not asking for it!

But yes, there's no way in hell they'll be doing it. So we should all just carry on precisely as we are, and that will not be changed in the slightest by self-Id as noone currently presents their birth certificate at the changing rooms in Next.

Oh, but yeah. They should totally splash the cash to ensure all their facilities are private and secure enough that ALL their customers can use them safely and without fear.

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 18:47

How would you police this though @Datun ... how can you realistically stop a trans woman or trans man using the single sex spaces. How do you make them use the third space?

It's a social contract. Males shouldn't use female spaces. If they do they don't respect women. Red flag. In some facilities you could complain to the management if the social expectation was that they would use the third space. Women have rights too.

JacquesHammer · 20/10/2018 18:48

It's hardly indulging them, is it; they're not asking for it!

Transwomen are demanding the right to access women’s sport.

Datun · 20/10/2018 18:48

How would you police this though @Datun ... how can you realistically stop a trans woman or trans man using the single sex spaces. How do you make them use the third space?

Transmen aren't clamouring to use male spaces. For obvious reasons.

If you're asking how we stop a man from using a female space, I think the question informs the answer.

Women can't stop men dominating them. Which is why the protocols and customs that we have in place now are incredibly useful.

Public opinion.

If public opinion is silenced, women will not be able to stop men from intimidating them over using their intimate space.

The law needs to reflect public opinion. At the moment, public opinion is that sex segregation should be retained.

We need to maintain current law and strengthen the protocols which say you can challenge a man in your space.

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 18:48

It's hardly indulging them, is it; they're not asking for it!

It is indulging them because male people shouldn't expect to invade women's spaces. It's male entitlement.

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 18:49

We need to maintain current law and strengthen the protocols which say you can challenge a man in your space.

This.

Goldmandra · 20/10/2018 18:51

as a woman I like the idea of mixed toilets/facilities

Me too and seeing as women seem to piss all over toilet seats as much as men, I can't really see any disadvantage as long as the cubicles sealed floor to ceiling all round any urinals were in a separate space.