Trans and third space?

[Teachtolive]

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

sounds to me awfully like a drunk women dishing it out to all and sundry.

Would you be saying that if a man assaulted two women whilst shouting "women are all fucking sluts, get back in the kitchen!", then went on to punch one of their boyfriends outside?

no, because that's not remotely the same situation, and you know it.

I'm not sure they're all that different River, but I'm sure everyone can form their own opinion.

Those who are not are those who say hurtful things on Twitter in the name of feminism AND those who shout hurtful things at them in the street and punch them!

It's no surprise to me, at all, that there is a backlash against genuine transpeople.

Feminists and transsexuals both predicted it.

Take it up with transactivists.

One question rat: why should we see male born people as women?

Take it up with transactivists.

Well no, because as Captain pointed out earlier, what's been rolled back in society is acceptance and respect for trans people.

I will take that up with anyone who contributes to that by failing to show acceptance or respect towards trans people.

What I will take up with trans activists (if I ever meet one) is whatever lack of acceptance or respect they show towards people who disagree with them, so long as that disagreement is respectful and accepting (or rather tolerant) of their worldview.

I will take that up with anyone who contributes to that by failing to show acceptance or respect towards trans people

But what about when acceptance comes at an actual measurable risk to women?

Well no, because as Captain pointed out earlier, what's been rolled back in society is acceptance and respect for trans people.

Meaningless. Unless you define acceptance and respect.

Because at the moment acceptance means agreeing that a penis is a female organ, and that lesbians can be men. And respect is shutting up about it, or else.

But what about when acceptance comes at an actual measurable risk to women?

Well aside from the fact that in many cases the risk is negligible rather than measurable, we should remove the risk! In the case of toilets and changing rooms that can be done with improving facilities, and that way acceptance/tolerance isn't compromised, and neither is women's safety.

Well aside from the fact that in many cases the risk is negligible rather than measurable, we should remove the risk! In the case of toilets and changing rooms that can be done with improving facilities, and that way acceptance/tolerance isn't compromised, and neither is women's safety

Great. Toilets and changing rooms done.

Sports? Less so...

Because at the moment acceptance means agreeing that a penis is a female organ, and that lesbians can be men. And respect is shutting up about it, or else.

I can only tell you the way I'm using the words, but to me acceptance is saying "trans people see themselves and the world this way, and that's completely fine for them, I don't need to fight with them about the principles of their worldview"; and respect means "the way you see things is just as valid as the way I do and you have a right to live your life in line with that perspective. We both have a right to be safe and express ourselves in life, but neither of us is more worthy of that than the other. Let's see what we can do to accommodate both of us, if at all we can".

This is what constitutes acceptance for many trans-activists.

Acknowledging that male is the problem, and making women as human shields the solution.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3402958-I-dont-give-a-fuck-about-your-traumatic-sexual-assault

*male violence

Great. Toilets and changing rooms done.

Is it?? Oh thank god, I've been waiting for this day for months!

Phew, okay, one down so very many threads left to go :)

Is it?? Oh thank god, I've been waiting for this day for months

You seem to think so. I’m rather more practical in reality.

However other things are more of a concern to me

To be fair Datun I've seen very similar sentiments expressed by women on FWR, often with equally as colourful language...

That doesn't make it right of course, I wince every time I see something so reactionary. But I understand it. People are hurting; they're frightened; on both sides.

We need to cut through that. It's not ignoring it, but no good can come from getting swept up in the swathe of emotion coming from both sides. The focus needs to be on what can be achieved - together - not how worried and afraid everybody is that it will fail.

I can only tell you the way I'm using the words, but to me acceptance is saying "trans people see themselves and the world this way, and that's completely fine for them, I don't need to fight with them about the principles of their worldview"; and respect means "the way you see things is just as valid as the way I do and you have a right to live your life in line with that perspective. We both have a right to be safe and express ourselves in life, but neither of us is more worthy of that than the other. Let's see what we can do to accommodate both of us, if at all we can".

the way you see things is just as valid as the way I do and you have a right to live your life in line with that perspective.

Not when rights clash, laws are broken, or an endless list of other reasons, they don't.

Rat it's very difficult to achieve anything, when the two factions want the opposite.

Even if you did it on an individual basis. You'd get two individuals who want the opposite.

I'm afraid you can't please everyone.

No, you're right, you can please everyone. But you can't then simply throw your hands up in the air and say, "right, too difficult, I won't bother trying to please you lot at all".

To be fair Datun I've seen very similar sentiments expressed by women on FWR, often with equally as colourful language...

The difference Is the women will not be saying they are frightened of women, that female violence is problem, and they want to be protected from it, and to keep transmen away from them.

A man, acknowledges that male violence is a huge issue, openly doesn't give a fuck that women are subjected to it, as long as other men aren't.

And he advocates for people who think like this to have access to female spaces.

No.

right, too difficult, I won't bother trying to please you lot at all".

Yes I can.

Male violence is a huge problem.

I would like to see more men acknowledge it.

The improvements you suggested haven't been improvements, they've been fortifications.

Well said.

In my experience the majority of women have no problem sharing sex specific facilities with trans women.

That depends entirely on how you are defining "trans women". if you use it in the Stonewall sense, I promise you that's utter nonsense.

I find it striking that though we're seeing lots of pics of rather large trans women winning and setting records in women's events, I'm not seeing any equivalency for trans men competing with men and beating them at their own events. Where are the trans men sprinters? Throwers?
I suspect we'll not see them, because the plain fact is that men are bigger, stronger and faster than women. Their frame makes their throwing more accurate (it's the hips ladies!) and so on. One to one, women can't compete with a full grown male framed and bodied man, irrespective of how they choose to identify.