Trans and third space?

[Teachtolive]

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

Aside from the fact that the whole thing is completely unscientific and 93% of the natal women studied <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19591032" target="_blank">heree^ were found to have "autogynephilia",

Yes, of course. That's totally reliable and not at all bullshit. The key fact here, which is a teensy bit downplayed imho, is that there is a difference between a WOMAN aroused by the thought of herself having sex as the female person she is and a MALE aroused by the idea of having sex as a female person.

We all know fetishist cross dressers exist Rat.

Of course AGP exists. It's plastered from one end of the Internet to the other.

I don't know if it's a criminal offence to involve someone in your arousal without their consent, but I suspect so. It's certainly offensive. And yes, it can begin in adolescence.

Broken down into four sub sections, each one poses a significant problem with regards to female spaces.

• Transvestic autogynephilia: arousal to the act or fantasy of wearing typically feminine clothing (this is what people often mean when they talk about autogynephilia, but it is much more nuanced);

• Behavioral autogynephilia: arousal to the act or fantasy of doing something regarded as feminine, also covers ‘interpersonal autogynephilia’;

• Physiologic autogynephilia: arousal to fantasies of body functions specific to people regarded as female (there’s some way-out stuff on the Internet of males getting a kick from pretending to be pregnant); and

• Anatomic autogynephilia: arousal to the fantasy of having a normative woman’s body, or parts of one (breasts are a common fantasy, often the autogynephile will want breasts but to keep his penis and testicles, this is an instance of ‘partial autogynephilia’).

Datun - yes, women can always tell who's a man.
I have a dear friend who is a transman and passes absolutely. We went to a transman Christmas celebration; it was for family, friends and allies.
We had a festive feast and the music was great (how often do you hear Tower of Power?).
I was utterly boggled to realise that so many transmen passed as men - not all of course; with some I might have fleetingly wondered if they were gay, but not for long as I don't care.
Such an eye-opener. So they use a cubicle in the men's and quietly get on with their lives, It was at this celebration that I was shown videos of Buck Angel . . . . bit of a surprise!
I agree that 'some' transwomen are deeply deluded to think that they pass as women. We always know.

I agree that 'some' transwomen are deeply deluded to think that they pass as women. We always know.

According to the transwidows thread on FWR, a lot of AGP individuals seriously don't see what others see. Which might Account for the casual donning of wholly inappropriate clothing, and the misinterpretation of stares.

And yes, anecdotally, I've heard that transmen can pass far more frequently.

I met a transwoman who said "I'm accepted as a woman everywhere I go".
No, you're not. We are being polite and kind. If I met such a person out socialising who told me their name was Joan, I'd call them Joan. This doesn't mean I believe they actually are a woman.
And I've thought long and hard about what it means to 'treat' someone, or 'relate to' a transwoman as a woman.
I conclude that there is a vanishingly small difference to the the way I deal with men and women (trans or not), unless I should rather hope to writhe my body against theirs,

Anti-trans activists say "There's a small but loud and powerful group of misogynistic trans allies who are using hatred and fear to silence women"

Trans activists say "There's a small but loud and powerful group of transphobic radical feminists who are using hatred and fear to silence trans people"

I'm quite new to this conversation but the bigotry against trans people here is just jaw dropping. Many are not discussing the GRA reforms, just slagging off trans women (mostly), and massively overstating the "threat" to women. I honestly thought the debate here would be about (largely unfounded) fear of predators - not genuine trans people - using the reforms to commit crimes but instead I'm seeing an awful lot of plain old transphobia.

Anti-trans activists say "There's a small but loud and powerful group of misogynistic trans allies who are using hatred and fear to silence women"

Trans activists say "There's a small but loud and powerful group of transphobic radical feminists who are using hatred and fear to silence trans people"

One of these sentences makes sense. One doesn't. You might like to consider the 15 meetings to legitimately discuss how a proposed change in the law may affect women's rights which have been targeted by TRAs for varying levels of threats and bullying.

The reverse is not true. It's really not "both sides are as bad".

I honestly thought the debate here would be about (largely unfounded) fear of predators - not genuine trans people - using the reforms to commit crimes

Partly. That's a pretty low bar for women's though, don't you think? That if we're not statistically likely to be raped we can't have any boundaries? Think about what you're saying.

*women's rights

I honestly thought the debate here would be about (largely unfounded) fear of predators - not genuine trans people - using the reforms to commit crimes

Sometimes, of course. It's also about maintaining the law as it currently is. And identifying and highlighting those misogynistic bullies who are targeting everything to do with women.

And by genuine, I'm assuming you mean genuine transwomen like Jane Fae who has campaigned for years to legalise extreme pornography and lowering the age of participants? Currently in talks with girl guides about their trans policy. And advised Maria Millers equalities committee.

Or genuine transwoman, Shon Faye who has told women to enjoy their erasure and advises adolescents suck dick and get tits early.

Or genuine transwoman Tanya Love, Telford women's officer, who recommends we s*k her big lady c*k.

Or genuine transwoman Jess Bradley, who is employed by the National Union of Students, and is being investigated for indecent exposure, incest porn, and recommending schoolboys expose themselves. Who also influences government policy.

Or maybe genuine transwoman Aimee Challoner, erstwhile Green party deputy leader candidate, now working for the Lib Dems, whose nappy fetish is plastered across Twitter.

Unless, of course, you don't think they are genuine. And are willing to say so. On mumsnet.

Datun what's any of that got to do with the reform. The people you refer to are trans women able to use women's spaces already. That IS the law already?

And while people may not like some of the things the people you mention have said or are into, none has been convicted of a crime that I'm aware of?

Why should violent convicted offenders be permitted to transition, and how can any woman tell if the person next to them is a man with a penis or a transwoman with a penis??

The reverse is not true.

That's not what the trans activists say. They talk about bullying and intimidating behaviour too.

I'm not particularly invested in this conversation but it does seem like there's an awful lot of fearmongering going on. And possibly unwillingness to understand people's fears, unfounded or otherwise, on the other side.

One thing's for sure, MN is not the place for balanced discussion on this issue.

babbscrabbs

You said you didn't think the debate would be about 'genuine transwomen'.

I'm asking if you think these awful threatening misogynists are genuine transwomen, and if so, there's your debate. One earth would you think we wouldn't talk about them??

The fact that you think them currently accessing women's spaces is the end of it, is risible. And makes you part of the problem.

One thing's for sure, MN is not the place for balanced discussion on this issue.

Because of the harassing and threatening behaviour of transactivists, mumsnet is the ONLY place where you can have this discussion.

That's not what the trans activists say. They talk about bullying and intimidating behaviour too.

Examples? Although does make me laugh that people imagine a handful of women can intimidate great swathes of men.

What's the point of feminism? 🤣

Hope Lye has been sent another death threat
twitter.com/GNCmaninpink/status/1054318375042772992

And another Labour Party Womens Officer has made some choice comments
twitter.com/isacsohn/status/1051501022252855296

I assume police are still investigating the bomb threats made against WPUK, apparently there was an arrest.

That is a direct death threat.

Dear lord.

Datun . I am trying to empathise with people with differing views and understand where they are coming from here. It's very difficult to do that when people are so abrasive and reactionary.

I'm pretty appalled by the alleged behaviour of activists both trans and anti trans to be fair. If you want examples I'm sure you can find lots via Google.

A handful of women can intimidate great swathes of men.

Who said anything about a handful and great swathes? Where did that come from?

You know, instead of immediately going on the attack and calling me part of the problem you could actually try to persuade me to understand your point of view using better facts, explanations or examples - all I've got is a shortlist of trans women who do stuff you think is perverted by the looks of it. Not sure what that is meant to be convincing me of?

And I still don't see how that's justification for people to slag off trans women as a whole.

I don't know any trans people well but I know a few in passing and they all seem like gentle, friendly, open people with no agenda, who just want to get on with their life without being persecuted. Obviously I'm not saying all will be like that, but that's the same for literally any group of people ever.

Maybe because I see them as humans it's easier for me to see how hateful and generalising some of the stuff written on here is. And that's without any understanding of what living as a trans person is like.

Is it so bloody difficult to add to one of the 3 other (that I know of) threads which are ongoing regarding this subject?! I’m sick of reading about it - ironically I began one of the threads back in August!

I’m getting sick of reading about the entire issue.

Why add to those rather than this one?

This is the only one I've seen.

I didn't start any of them!

Sorry, that was to the OP...seriously though, there’s so many threads on this.

better facts, explanations or examples

There are many facts, explanations and examples on this thread.

What kind of information would you like?

chch there are lots of threads because it's something lots of people are interested in discussing. (LOL at 3, there are hundreds!) It was obvious from the thread title what this one was about so no idea why you clicked on it if you're not interested. Internet forums 101.

I have trans friends, unfortunately they are anti-self ID so I can't get a full discussion about why it's a great thing in real life.
It's a view on a big change to the law which hasn't been properly planned or explained, people are right to be sceptical and worried about misuse, there have been no discussions around it to ease fears either, no explanations on weather there will be religious exemptions put in place or anything.
How dare you tell me I don't see my friends as human because of this.