Trans and third space?

[Teachtolive]

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

I don't believe you're not informed about this Rat so I can only assume you're being disingenuous.

Not on Twitter Ereshkigal, so it's really not something I see. I know some of the individuals you named, and I know there are diverse views within the trans community (and of course I know the slur "Truscum"), but I'm not seeing two warring factions. That simply isn't the picture painted by the groups which represent this community. Broadly speaking, they all seem to say the same things.

What they want is to use the facilities of the gender they identify with.

Perhaps that's not actually a reasonable expectation for all the reasons that have been laid out time and again in these threads. And although many people are ok with unisex toilets, changing rooms and other single sex spaces/facilities are a totally different matter.

Perhaps that's not actually a reasonable expectation for all the reasons that have been laid out time and again in these threads.

Aaaand what I'm saying is that it wouldn't be unreasonable if those facilities were improved!

That simply isn't the picture painted by the groups which represent this community. Broadly speaking, they all seem to say the same things.

Perhaps the "groups which represent this community" don't represent the voices of this specific group very well? Hence letters to the Guardian etc that the signatories got a load of shit for. There is a conflict, whether or not you want to see it.

Aaaand what I'm saying is that it wouldn't be unreasonable if those facilities were improved!

Aaaand lots of people disagree on that! You have your view, others are available.

The vast majority of people prefer sex specific facilities. For those who don't, a third option is suggested as a solution. If that doesn't work because of validation, then I'm all out of solutions. Not my problem.

In my experience the majority of women have no problem sharing sex specific facilities with trans women. For those who do, a third option is suggested as a solution. You go there. The queue will be shorter.

I'm not saying there isn't conflict Eresh, of course there will be; groups are made up of individuals, after all. There's "conflict" in the GC camp as well, with some happy to share certain facilities with trans women and not others, with some making a distinction between pre-OP and post-OP trans women, with some simply opposing self-ID and some wanting to fully repeal the GRA. Some want nothing short of the full public and legal attestation that transgenderism is nothing more than a delusion, or a mental illness in need of "treatment", in the hope of somehow restoring those individuals to "normal".

But yes, if those groups don't represent those individuals, if they aggree sufficiently and there are enough of them, I should imagine they would want their own group. Instead most of them appear to be allied to the GC feminist faction... which is sort of odd, and sort of understandable.

Rat you're deliberately conflating violence towards transwomen with someone who said that the two sides in this debate are behaving the same.

They're not. Women have been doxxed, pursued through the courts, punched, suffered bomb threat, been harassed, threatened, had smoke bombs thrown, been met with masked men holding Doberman dogs, blocked from entry to buildings, and had a never-ending tide of depraved abuse aimed at them online. From people in this debate.

You trawling Google to find a transwoman hit by a woman is a ridiculous counter argument to that.

No one should be dying in jail. It's not just trans people.

But the answer to that is not to pretend men are women and they get to go to female prisons. Clearly.

Women are human beings in their own right. Many of whom would have been subjected to violent male behaviour ranging from intimidation to rape. If you are so hellbent on reducing everything to a case by case basis, it would be preferable to ask each of the women in prison how they felt. Rather than the men who want to go there.

Rat you're deliberately conflating violence towards transwomen with someone who said that the two sides in this debate are behaving the same.

Tell me, how is a trans person supposed to distinguish between someone who is "in this debate" and someone who is not when they are being abused? What with the reason for that abuse being exactly the same in both instances?

And are all trans people "in this debate" be default? But all non-trans people are not??

what I'm saying is that it wouldn't be unreasonable if those facilities were improved!

The improvements you suggested haven't been improvements, they've been fortifications.

In my experience the majority of women have no problem sharing sex specific facilities with trans women. For those who do, a third option is suggested as a solution. You go there. The queue will be shorter

Eh?? What third option?

The improvements you suggested haven't been improvements, they've been fortifications.

Well that's an emotive way to describe them isn't it. I wonder why you'd use such language.

What they actually are is providing facilities that are sensitive to a woman's greater need for security due to potentially increased vulnerability. They are a good thing for feminism, because the world was built with "man" as the default human. If "woman" had been the default human, facilities would have been as private and as secure as I'm suggesting right from the start, because that is apparently what women want and need.

Tell me, how is a trans person supposed to distinguish between someone who is "in this debate" and someone who is not when they are being abused? What with the reason for that abuse being exactly the same in both instances?

Rat, I know you like to go down these pointless cul-de-sacs. You might find it interesting, I don't.

I might as well say when a woman is being raped how is she to know whether the person is 'in this debate' or not?

We are talking about transactivists who are fully committed politically to pushing through a law. And radical feminists who want their concerns taking into account.

The two sides of this debate are not using the same tactics. One side wants to shut the other side up, and threaten them in order to do so.

Rat from those links you supplied we have

one drunk woman who insulted (or spoke the truth, depending on your point of view) and assaulted two transwomen amongst others*, so she was on a bit of a spree, but only the two transowmen are apparently worthy of mention - nothing to say this was a 'trans hate' attack

*the stats are from Stonewall so automatically suspect, as we know from their teen suicide stats, so discounting those.

*the Guardian story - nothing to say that person was killed because they were trans

*can't access the Grimsby one.

not quite sure what you're trying to prove with those, tbh.

tch, bold fail.

What they actually are is providing facilities that are sensitive to a woman's greater need for security due to potentially increased vulnerability.

I disagree with increasing their vulnerability in the first place to satisfy a man's validation.

To be honest i don't find that avenue particularly interesting either Datun, but ultimately I disagree with you. One "side" threatens the other to make them "go away", and the other abuses them online and punches them in the street to make them "go away". The sides aren't just TRAs and GC feminists, just like a woman isn't raped only by an individual but by a man - of the group of men.

I could go on with that but like you say it's boring as hell and really only a side point. We can put that one to one side I reckon

so she was on a bit of a spree, but only the two transowmen are apparently worthy of mention - nothing to say this was a 'trans hate' attack

Did you read the link? No, she attacked two trans women singing karaoke in a pub specifically for being transgender; she said something along lines of, "What IS that?? It's a man!" before attacking them. Her third victim was someone she attacked subsequently outside the pub, following on from her previous attacks - they just happened not to be transgender!

One "side" threatens the other to make them "go away", and the other abuses them online and punches them in the street to make them "go away"

I have no idea who you're talking about here. This represents male behaviour, not female.

What with the reason for that abuse being exactly the same in both instances?

Yes, aggressive and violent (and probably drunk) male thugs are well known for their concern for women's privacy, dignity and safety. You see it all the time out on the streets....

This represents male behaviour, not female.

Don't you think a trans person would see it as the behaviour of someone who is not trans against someone who is trans, rather than a question of male and female? Particularly given that the reason for the abuse is the difference between them; one being trans and the other not.

I appreciate as feminists we're in the habit of classifying our experiences by what makes us a distinct group; so to us it is men against women. But to a trans person what makes them a group is their being trans, so I imagine abuse to them is not a question of man or woman, but a question of not trans.

But to a trans person what makes them a group is their being trans,

So what?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make Rat? Intimidation, threatening, and punching is not the MO of radical feminists

So Datun you have to take those "class analysis" glasses you use for feminism and apply those to the trans community.

You might see this as TRAs versus GC feminists, but the trans community might well see it as trans people versus anti-trans-people. They don't care if you call yourself a GC feminist instead, they see those who are tolerant and those who are not! Those who are not are those who say hurtful things on Twitter in the name of feminism AND those who shout hurtful things at them in the street and punch them!

And when you look at the class analysis; the two classes being "trans people" and "not trans people"; you can kind of see why they might think that.

and after that the report says: Dare made further comments towards a non-trans victim and committed another assault.

sounds to me awfully like a drunk women dishing it out to all and sundry.