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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Trans and third space?

558 replies

Teachtolive · 20/10/2018 12:05

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

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RatUnholyRolyPoly · 22/10/2018 10:43

Over 60% of girls subjected to sexual harassment or sexual assault.

I'm afraid I have to crack on with the maths they pay me for today, but I can confidently tell you that that statistic doesn't say what you think it does regarding the risk posed to a trans boy in a tent with a handful of other boys. It really doesn't. That's not how stats work but it is how fearmongering works.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 10:44

Okay so what is the stats?

Datun · 22/10/2018 10:45

Good to know that you can add clairvoyance to your raft of imaginary skills, Rat.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 10:45

I'm sure no teenage boy has ever taken advantage of a transboy.

Datun · 22/10/2018 10:52

Rat is using the word unlikely to minimise sexual violence against women.

Young girls who transition are likely to be either gay, autistic, or have suffered from past sexual trauma. Following trans logic it means they will now be alone amongst men or boys when they are in vulnerable situations.

Thinking that's not a good idea is fear mongering to Rat.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 22/10/2018 11:07

Okay so what is the stats?

Well I really do have to work, but I hate to run out on a good question. I did in fact do a quick Google whilst writing that last post. On a cursory glance I couldn't find anything beyond a figure for reported sexual assaults within schools and a figure for girls of school age who have experienced sexual harassment (from parties of unspecified age or relation to the victim). So nothing especially relevant to the situation described. I'm sure, given time and a decent search engine, I could find a clearer statistical picture of the risk.

What I will say is that categorically the figure of "60% of schoolgirls have experienced sexual harassment" does not tell us anything about the likelihood of a schoolgirl experiencing sexual harassment on any one occasion in the company of school age boys. It doesn't. It does not follow that every time a schoolgirl comes across a schoolboy there is a 60% chance of her being sexually harassed, and yet the stat was presented as if it does. That's deeply misleading and totally disingenuous.

Add to that the fact that presenting that fact as so absolutely contributes to the damaging gender expectations society foists upon boys that is it normal for them to sexually abuse, or that is is somehow "manly" to do so. Fundamentally boys are inclined to become "men" (in the gendered sense), and so painting a gendered expectation that men do and will sexually harass women as some biologically determined drive is profoundly unhelpful. Criminals sexually harass and abuse women. Right now the vast majority of those criminals are men, BECAUSE of gendered expectations, not because of their biology; or because of ours.

But things start to get complicated here, and it's a fine balancing act between to responding to the current patriarchal and gendered society that we live in and establishing change, so this could go waaaay off piste at this point (which I don't have time to get into today). I just thought I'd throw it out there as a point to think on.

Datun · 22/10/2018 11:22

The government report on sexual violence and sexual assault in schools concluded:

• The Women and Equalities committee (WEC) found a number of large scale surveys find girls consistently reporting high levels of sexual harassment and sexual violence in schools and colleges.5
• Girlguiding's Girls' Attitudes Survey 2017 found 64% of girls aged 13-21 had experienced sexual violence or sexual harassment at school or college in the past year. This included 39% having their bra strap pulled by a boy and 27% having their skirts pulled up within the last week.6
5 WEC report- paragraph 13
6 Girlguiding's Girls' Attitude Survey 2017
6
• Over a third (37%) of female students and 6% of male students at mixed-sex schools have personally experienced some form of sexual harassment at school.7
• Almost a quarter (24%) of female students and 4% of male students at mixed-sex schools have been subjected to unwanted physical touching of a sexual nature while at school.8
• Girls (14%) were significantly more likely than boys (7%) to report that their partner had pressured them to share nude images of themselves in the last year.9
• Girls are significantly more likely to be victimised with unwanted sexual messages and images from their peers online, with 31% of female respondents aged 13-17 years saying they had experienced this in the last year compared to 11% of male respondents.10
• In 2016/17 the NSPCC childline service provided over 3000 counselling sessions to children and young people concerned about being sexually assaulted by their peers.11

Of crimes committed in toilets, 90% of them happen in mixed sex.

Suggesting a solution that turns individual cubicles into floor to ceiling, lockable fortresses instantly acknowledges that a mixed sex place is a risk. Otherwise why do it?

The vast majority of people prefer sex specific facilities. For those who don't, a third option is suggested as a solution. If that doesn't work because of validation, then I'm all out of solutions. Not my problem.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 15:50

MenoMum4
Would you be fine with your son sharing a tent, changing room or shower with someone who has an autogynephilia?

They can self ID too under stonewalls transgender umbrella, all crossdressers can.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 22/10/2018 16:07

Would you be fine with your son sharing a tent, changing room or shower with someone who has an autogynephilia?

This obsession with autogynephilia (which is not a scientifically accepted "condition" by the way) is so strange to me. Aside from the fact that the whole thing is completely unscientific and 93% of the natal women studied here were found to have "autogynephilia", my main problem is the bizarre association of fetishes with criminality. Specifically criminality against another person rather than just, for example, a bra fetishist stealing bras.

A quick Google shows that this book (relevant page on screen) states that "there appears to be little convincing evidence to date that fetishism per se is associated with violence". I mean surely that's pretty common sense, considering no-one's ever been scared to walk barefoot in case a foot fetishist is just around the corner.

It's bizarre! And frankly offensive. Why this de facto linking of sexual fetishes and criminal sexual behavior? It's a manipulation of our conditioned idea that sex is naughty, that it's somehow "wrong", and anything outside of the sexual norm is associated with other behaviours which deviate from social norms - i.e. crime.

But that's nuts! I like ginger men, but they don't need to fear me alone on a dark night. They wouldn't need to fear me for that even if I were a man and they were a woman, because the default vision of our fellow human beings should not be that they are criminal. Because that just is not the case, and is not borne out by statistics! A very small minority of people are dangerous criminals Confused

AGP is a red herring. The reddest of red herrings, and it plays on our socially conditioned fear and discomforts about people's sexual behaviours, which are rooted in religion and patriarchy.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 16:14

Right rat, but you haven't answered the question I actually asked you. This one was for MenoMum4, please don't speak for people.

which is not a scientifically accepted "condition" by the way

Changing sex is not scientifically accepted either, but there are people who truly believe they have done it.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 16:15

Was the question I asked you, to provide actual stats to back up your claim about sexual assult too hard?

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 22/10/2018 16:16

Oh, and I predict someone is going to say, "yeah, a small percentage of the population might be sexual criminals, but the vast majority of those sexual criminals are men!".

Yes. Agreed. Let me put it like this; what you're saying is, "some people are sexual criminals. All of those sexual criminals are men. Why are men sexual criminals??"

That's false logic! "Men", in general, are NOT sexual criminals.

What we should be saying is, "some people are sexual criminals. All of those sexual criminals are men. Why are sexual criminals more likely to be men?"

Because then it's clear that the people we need to worry about are the sexual criminals, of whom there are more than we would like but not anywhere near as many as there are men, but acknowledges that they are hugely more likely to be men.

To phrase it the first way is misleading, perhaps deliberately so, I really don't know. But it's not right to present something in such a way that deliberately obfuscates the actual situation and plays, once again, on their fears.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 16:17

It's a manipulation of our conditioned idea that sex is naughty, that it's somehow "wrong"

You really want this discussion based around a 14 year old?
Of course it's wrong.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 22/10/2018 16:18

I didn't answer for her Captain, I made a comment about your question. I didn't answer your question in any way - it was never my intention to Confused

Was the question I asked you, to provide actual stats to back up your claim about sexual assult too hard?

I did answer you. Scroll back.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 16:19

Actually rat I didn't mention that it was a man, you assumed that.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 22/10/2018 16:20

You really want this discussion based around a 14 year old?

I think you're misunderstanding here Captain, I made a comment on your question as you raised the concept of autogynephilia.

And yes, in the context of 14 year olds it is rather "wrong" to ascribe them sexual fetishes. Bizarre, and totally wrong! Do you know many 14 year olds with fetishes? The fact that you think you do in order to be able to even pose that question is extremely strange in itself.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 16:20

I did answer you.
No you didn't, I asked for statistics you said you could provide them but the idea of it matching the 60% are wrong because of magic.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 16:22

Do you know many 14 year olds with fetishes? The fact that you think you do in order to be able to even pose that question is extremely strange in itself.

How weird, if course 14 year olds have fetishes.
But I didn't say the person with the feitsh was a teenager did I, I said they were sharing a shower.

You are filling in a lot of blanks.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 22/10/2018 16:25

Magic? Wow, okay, I thought you might be someone who could follow what I was saying given your apparent interest in stats. Seeing as that's not the case, I'm not entirely sure where we can go from here.

If this is a failing in my communication skills I really would be happy to break it down for you, if you'd like to direct me to the place where I lost you? I really do want us to mutually understand one another.

By all means though, you're not obliged. Particularly with my comments on autogynephilia; I was just putting my views across on that as it cropped up in conversation (so to speak).

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 16:29

Are you making fun of me for having a learning disability rat?
That's pretty low.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 16:31

Any way, you've learnt something today, fetishes begin very early on in sexual development.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 22/10/2018 16:41

Are you making fun of me for having a learning disability rat?

What are you talking about Captain, how would I even know that?? Actually I've always thought you were rather bright, which is why I was sad to have lot you with my explanation. I hope I haven't made you feel bad, I really wasn't poking fun. Once I complained to a friend that my MIL had accused me of being passive-aggressive; she burst out laughing (she's known me a long time), saying, "god, she doesn't know you at all! You're never passive aggressive, when you're pissed off you're just aggressive aggressive!". But thankfully that only happens under extreme circumstances Smile

Fetishes do indeed have their roots in early childhood (or so they believe), but they don't tend to manifest themselves until well into puberty, if not well into later life.

RatUnholyRolyPoly · 22/10/2018 16:42

*LOST you, not lot!

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 16:48

Actually I rwas mistaken, Iread your post wrong, sorry, I thought you were complaining about my communication skills, but you weren't.

I am bright with regards to IQ, unfortunately it means nothing as I struggle with thing like to tying my shoes.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 16:50

I've said it before I am thankful that you actually talk and debate this, as very few people will.

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