Trans and third space?

[Teachtolive]

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

Also the argument that if it’s secure enough it’s ok.

If it needs to be secure then it’s not ok.

Sorry Bowl, that's a false equivalence. Noone is suggesting putting a man and a woman in the same cubicle to wee. Put a cat and a hamster in cages next to each other, sufficiently secure that they are kept apart, and they can eat and drink in the same room to their hearts' content.

We achieve equality of outcome by separation in this scenario.

We have aimed to achieve equality of outcome by broadly segregating (because trans people have been "breaking" that rule for a while now). That is not the only way. It may not even be the best way. It's definitely the cheap and easy option though, isn't it.

Could it be that noone wants to consider the alternatives (which are probably actually better for women!) if it's only the trans community the current system fails to serve?

That should also applies to mens toilets then, so tranwomen will be safe in them rat

Make them secure so tranwomen feel safe in the men's.

That should also applies to mens toilets then, so tranwomen will be safe in them rat

They should absolutely be safe to use them, if they want to use them Captain!

We should all be able to use any toilet anywhere and expect a reasonable degree of safety. Spaces provided for public use have to ensure any user a reasonable degree of safety!

If they are safe why would they need to use female toilets?

Make them secure so tranwomen feel safe in the men's.

And even if they feel safe in them they may not want to use them. Because they do not believe they are men.

You may agree with that, you may not, or you may think it's completely loopy, but we all have to get along as best we can and try and foster a tolerant society. That might stick in your throat just like it might stick in anybody's, but there is no good reason not to have trans people use the facilities of their choice if other users suffer no ill effects in terms of privacy, dignity and safety.

there is no good reason not to have trans people use the facilities of their choice if other users suffer no ill effects in terms of privacy, dignity and safety.

But it can't be guaranteed this is the issue in real life there is always a danger.

they do not believe they are men.
That's a very blanket statement, there are plenty of transexuals who know they have male bodies.

But it can't be guaranteed this is the issue in real life there is always a danger.

There's always a danger, even with sex segregation. To be honest very little effort is made to make facilties safe beyond sex segregation, because segregation is the fallback position that means venues don't need to bother actually trying. That's not good enough!

There could, quite conceivably, be LESS danger with upgraded existing facilities and no concern for where trans people want to go than we have at present

But yes, there will always be risk in life. If your bar is "no risk" I wonder how you even get out of bed in the morning

That's a very blanket statement, there are plenty of transexuals who know they have male bodies.

I didn't mean to generalise. Some trans women do not believe they are men, regardless of their bodies.

Well maybe the transwomen that are pushing for using women’s spaces should understand why there is so much opposition to this

But you know what male privilege isn’t something they want to give up is it regardless of what gender they feel they are

Many women don't feel the need to accommodate a man's belief system.

They require sex segregation.

As the mum of a 14yr old son (who happened to be born in a female body) I have to say that some of these comments make me scared for his future.

We are in no doubt about my sons gender and since transitioning has truly grown in confidence and is, quite simply, an amazingly brave, compassionate, warm human being.

I totally get the "confusion" and fear of the unknown but for the love of god live and let live or at least educate yourselves about gender dysphoria and all that comes with it.

Have a great evening all 

Welcome to mumsnet MenoMum4.

Your child might be the right candidate for this third space a lot of people advocate.

Or alternatively, if you feel a female bodied person would be more comfortable in the male facility, that's up to you and your child.

It's the converse that's the problem.

I'd feel safer with fully unisex loos than "women, TW and sexual predators posing as TW" loos. For example if DH is out with DD, quiet shopping centre not many people around, and he sees an apparent man following her into the loos, what should he do? He can't ask if they're a TW or a flasher can he? If it was unisex, he would be able to follow her in.

Many women don't feel the need to accommodate a man's belief system

Sorry, is a man's belief system any less worthy of tolerance than a woman's? It certainly isn't any more worthy. But I'm afraid my values of tolerance and personal liberty don't only extend to people just like me, they extend to ALL people. Or I couldn't really claim to be liberal or tolerant, could I.

I have to say, if you think the belief systems of men are of fundamentally less value in society than those of women, that doesn't make you a feminist. That makes you a female supremacist. Anything that ends in "supremacist" isn't generally a good thing.

Meno

I’m wondering what you mean by “since transitioning”?

But you know what male privilege isn’t something they want to give up is it regardless of what gender they feel they are

Indeed.

"And since when did we write laws giving male abusers, misogynists and predators unfettered access to their female victims, to validate a handful of men?"

How will predators have more access to potential victims than they already have with this reform in place? I don't see it.

I'd feel safer with fully unisex loos than "women, TW and sexual predators posing as TW" loos. For example if DH is out with DD, quiet shopping centre not many people around, and he sees an apparent man following her into the loos, what should he do? He can't ask if they're a TW or a flasher can he? If it was unisex, he would be able to follow her in.

Surely he'd follow her in if he was concerned?

Based on your logic no one would challenge him for doing so?

So DH should crowd in too and any women there now have two hulking males to worry about what their intentions are babbs? One of them at least hanging around the handbasin area looking shifty?

In the extremely unlikely circumstance that your DH sees someone presenting as a typical (or hulking, ha) man that's he feels is a threat to your DD going into the loos after her, then yes. It's a quiet shopping centre so who else will be in the loos anyway.

Hey, my imagined scenario, it's quiet not empty. There could be a woman in there. Or if it's a sweet harmless transsexual they could feel intimidated by DH themselves, or more than likely accuse him of transphobia for being worried.

Or it could be unisex and DH could keep an eye on DD without the risk of making anyone feel intimidated. Or there could be a third unisex space so we know for sure a male heading into the ladies is up to no good and can challenge them or call security.

Or there could be a third unisex space so we know for sure a male heading into the ladies is up to no good and can challenge them or call security.

This.