Trans and third space?

[Teachtolive]

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

I have precisely zero issue with a trans man using female spaces. The fact they present as Male is no more relevant than a woman who is feminine. Spaces are segregated based on sex not appearance.

^^This. Buck Angel and most other trans men are likely to be around the same height and weight as me and are statistically as likely to commit violent abuse as fellow females. Males on the other hand....

Buck Angel and most other trans men are likely to be around the same height and weight as me and are statistically as likely to commit violent abuse as fellow females

If I remember the Swedish study correctly don't trans men tend towards male violence patterns after transition? I'm pretty sure they do. And believe me, a trans man's muscle ratio and therefore physical strength will be far far greater than that of an equivalent weight woman on account of the testosterone. Its powerful stuff! That's why body builders dope with it, after all. Very few of us would stand any chance in a fight with a trans man, least of all Buck Angel; look at those guns.

But the main thing to consider with this is if you're letting Buck Angel pee next to you... that predatory man who would put on a dress and take advantage of Self-ID need not bother even putting on the dress! They can just swan straight in claiming to have a vagina and hey, I'm sure someone said we wouldn't be able to challenge them because that would be transphobic which is nonsense, right?

And what about the abuse victim who finds someone who to all intents and purposes appears extremely male in her intimate space triggering? So what if they're "a woman really", that's going to pass as much muster as if you say it of a trans woman!

It's nuts. It's literally nuts to imagine any other plausible solution than keeping men's and women's facilities but understanding that trans people will use the facilities they're comfortable with. And if that means venues have to make things a bit more private and a bit more secure so that noone can take advantage of it, then that's what they bloody well should do!

I’m so so fed up now. I have nothing against genuine transpeople but feel now with self I.d a real possibility that there will be a lot of men who take advantage. Look at Pippa/Phillip Bunce. He likes to wear a dress for half the week yet is a woman. I don’t wear dresses and I’m still a women. Once again it feels like a male driven agenda to suit men. I feel that the genuine transgender population is very small. It’s the men who get off on dressing as females now coming out of the woodwork. We’re not allowed to say anything as it’s a hate crime. Where were these men when we needed them to step up about rights for women? Oh yeah didn’t suit them. It strongly feels this is all about male privilege and women are once again at the bottom of the pecking order. And we’re meant to just take it.

I’m worried for my daughters who may end up in a space with a man who isn’t a genuine transgender person.

We’re not allowed to say anything as it’s a hate crime

Oh for heaven's sake, how many more people have been sucked in by this hyperbolic nonsense? THIS IS NOT TRUE. Christ, now I'm the one who's fed up.

Great posts @RatUnholyRolyPoly

I have precisely zero issue with a trans man using female spaces. The fact they present as Male is no more relevant than a woman who is feminine. Spaces are segregated based on sex not appearance.

So if a very masculine looking person with a beard comes into the changing room and starts stripping off (revealing no breasts and chest hair), how will you know if he's a biological male or a trans male? Unless you demand to see his genitals, how can you determine what sex they are to know whether they're entitled to be there or not?

Even if you see the genitals they can still be female.

Rat

There is an element of hyperbole in some elements of both sides,

Although..

Merseyside police were looking into stickers saying “women don’t have penises” as a hate crime, so.,,,,,

The better solution would be to have male, female and unisex spaces

But as we know many transwomen claim to be real women so feel their place is in with females

We often get told where self ID has happened there has been no issues. But if women can no longer legally complain how do we know women are not feeling uncomfortable with the situation

I am so sick of males trying their redefine what I am and tell me what I should feel

And, whilst it doesn’t state “hate speak” there’s this: advice to LP member that saying people who ID as transgender women are men will result in disciplinary action.

But as we know many transwomen claim to be real women so feel their place is in with females

Uh huh, that is indeed the claim. So surely the "better" solution (in that it would satisfy more people, cost less AND be more achievable) would be to upgrade existing facilities such that no-one's privacy or dignity is compromised, and no pervert would have anything to gain by pretending to be trans. So there'd be nothing to gain for them because the security would be sufficient to ensure the safety of anyone using those facilities, regardless of whether the person next to them was man, woman or criminal.

The only people who would think a third space would be a "better" option than this are those who place some value in denying trans people the ability to live according to their own perception of themselves. Which would be a bit of an odd thing to want.

Surely that's just being deluded

Well, of course it is. But it’s apparentlyteansphobic, and erases trans people, therefore literal violence. You’ve just killed 3 transwomen somewhere in the world, OP.

Transphobic - clearly my phone thinks I’m a t**f

Totally private facilities just aren't going to happen though are they. Individual lockable accommodation for changing, washing and sleeping in a school, in a prison, a guide camp? Would be a safeguarding issue in itself. Individual private swimming pools for women only swimming sessions? How do we manage individual private medical examinations or intimate searches? Individual and private would be great in many places and ways, but in this discussion is mostly just dodging the question.

I'm very keen on third spaces as a solution. "Unisex" is fine for most people, I'd probably use it myself as I'm big, lucky enough not to have had bad experiences, and I would prefer to keep DS with me as he's too old to use the women's but not altogether sensible. But even where the unisex option was available at the Hampstead swimming place, TW did not respect women's boundaries, they pushed on in and so pushed vulnerable women out.

Uh huh, that is indeed the claim. So surely the "better" solution (in that it would satisfy more people, cost less AND be more achievable)

The 'better' solution would be to do absolutely nothing. Leave spaces sex segregated, as they are.

Leave spaces sex segregated, as they are.

With trans people using them just as they currently are? Yeah, okay. I mean that's kind of been my position all along, with the addition of some sturdier doors and locks and better thought out internal layouts.

Yes

No why should females have to feel uncomfortable guessing if someone is male or not

Let’s not pretend all look like Paris Lees because they have been able to have a load of surgery and can most likely pass at a glance

And what about safe spaces in dv and rape support centres and the women only groups that are run in many counselling services

Why do males have the right to take away what women have fought for

No why should females have to feel uncomfortable guessing if someone is male or not

Why would they have to guess if the answer would have no bearing on their safety and privacy when using that space?

And what about safe spaces in dv and rape support centres

An important question, but can't we just finish interrogating this one first? By all accounts this should be the "easy" one.

Let’s take the toilets in airports often women wash at the sinks might quickly change a top

Or the toilets in train stations where on a Friday and Saturday nights you have lots of drunk men (and women) around in central city areas at night

I know who I fear more when they have had a drink and it’s not women

All these arguments are assuming that the main battle is lost. All these arguments are us being tossed crumbs when we’ve lost our spaces. The answer to all the ‘would it be OK if’ arguments is NO. No, we don’t accept the men in the space to start with. It’s a common technique making us argue about what height of cubicle wall will be acceptable because it makes us accept the premise that we will lose ourcsoaces as a start point. That’s what we should be fighting.

The battle is not what the sink areas will look like, or the height of cubicle walls. It’s to say ‘this isn't women’s prevalence to solve. You, the men, worried about Male violence, of men and to men, sort it out.’

No men in women’s spaces. Full stop. No means no. It’s not the start of a negotiation

Let’s take the toilets in airports often women wash at the sinks might quickly change a top

So wait, you don't want trans women to use the ladies' loos and for facilities to provide a whole third space so you can change your top in the sink area and not in a cubicle?

That's as bizarre as the poster (at least a year ago) who said she didn't want trans women in shop changing rooms because teenaged girls like to run around them in their underwear, giggling

I want females to feel they are safe enough to do that and not have to worry males might be around

Which is what we have now

And yes on two occasions I have been on toilets and a transwomen has been there and I felt uncomfortable but as long as he felt ok that’s all fine

All these arguments are us being tossed crumbs when we’ve lost our spaces. The answer to all the ‘would it be OK if’ arguments is NO.

Well that's all very rabble-rousing Bowl, and it really captures the suffragette spirit. It's probably why it attracts as much heartfelt support as it does, as views go. But I'm afraid I don't think for a second it's the right way to look at things when it comes to toilets and changing rooms.

Women and men do not have fundamentally different rights when it comes to toilets and changing rooms. We don't have a right to be apart, and we don't have a right to choose who else is able to access those facilities. What we do have a right to - all of us - is somewhere that is suitable for the task at hand, able to accommodate our biological requirements, that is accessible, safe, private and secure. Somewhere we can change or use the toilet in safety, and with dignity.

AND THAT CAN BE ACHIEVED

For everyone, man, woman, trans, regardless of the greater likelihood of male aggression than female. That can be achieved! With good planning and secure facilities.

We don’t have fundamentally different rights. We both want safety privacy and dignity.

What we need to accept is that those rights cannot be achieved in a unisex space. We have similar needs but it does not logically follow that we must all be together to achieve that. We achieve equality of outcome by separation in this scenario.

A pet cat and a pet hamster both need to be fed, cared for and housed in warm safe conditions, with access to excercise and veterinary care. They have exactly the same needs. Put them together and the hamster doesn’t come out so well though.

Sometimes exclusion is the way.