Trans and third space?

[Teachtolive]

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

A third unisex space would solve that conundrum'

A third unisex space would solve that conundrum

So would a truth machine that identified any potential human threat, along with their chromosomes, but they're both and fanciful as the other.

Pin your hopes on an impossible solution if you like, but if your aim is to preserve the safety and privacy of women I suggest we persevere with current set up of men's and women's as per the user's identity, and put pressure on providers to improve those facilities.

Make the mens unisex, if you find the idea of a third space so objectionable.

Make the mens unisex, if you find the idea of a third space so objectionable

Yes this.

There are some examples where a third space is the only viable option.

Should Buck Angel use the women's loos and be entitled to swim in Hampstead ponds, by virtue of being biologically female?

Laws aren't based on individuals. They're certainly not based on the individuals who are unlikely to break them.

Sex segregation is based on the statistical risk of women being attacked/leered at/menaced by men.

Sex segregation is based on the statistical risk of women being attacked/leered at/menaced by men.

...which is actually, statistically, a pretty small risk in 2018 Britain's public toilets and changing rooms. And could be even smaller with an improvement of existing facilities, such that our 1% trans population could be easily accommodated at no increased risk to women's safety or privacy.

Yeah this one was lost on me too! 😂

rat

You claiming that women should feel okay about allowing men into their changing rooms, toilets, wards because of the statistical unlikelihood of them being raped, is minimisation.

Over 60% of schoolgirls have suffered either from sexual harassment or sexual assault. They don't have to been raped by a partner. They are entitled to a single sex pace. Stop minimising women's experience and using rape in a toilet as some kind of bar.

Let's say that to 100% take the risk of sexual assault away. Pretend it doesn't exist. You still have the discomfort of having a male bodied person in a women's changing room.
The comfort and privacy of women matters as much as their safety

@RatUnholyRolyPoly can I ask, why do you think spaces such as toilets and changing rooms are segregated by sex?

You claiming that women should feel okay about allowing men into their changing rooms, toilets, wards because of the statistical unlikelihood of them being raped, is minimisation.

No,that's not what I'm claiming. What I'm claiming is that if women have somewhere suitably safe and private to do whatever intimate activity is required then our needs are met.

Are they not met? Whoever we're sharing with can neither see us nor access us nor hurt us.

If you want the preservation of strict biological segregation for segregation's sake - I.e. not in the pursuit of women's safety and dignity - you really have to ask yourself why. Because you'd have a hard time saying it's not prejudice, if it would make us no safer and no more exposed.

Note: I say strict segregation because I'm not advocating removing mens and ladies facilities wholesale, just that trans individuals can continue to use the facilities of their choice.

Your moving on to talk about schoolgirls is straight out of leftfield really; whilst it's obviously a grave concern you're just throwing in an emotive truth without showing any connection between it and the discussion in hand. You haven't even suggested that those assaults on schoolgirls happen in gender neutral toilets, so the point you're making is more an appeal to emotion than anything more substantial, isn't it?

But if sex self ID goes through it will not just be trans women it potentially any number of the UK's 33 million men entering our spaces. Vastly increasing our risks, especially as trans or not, all these men know they are not welcome by the majority of women and they don't care and intend on using our spaces anyway. Massive red flag, as those red who don't care about women's boundaries are the most dangerous.

I have decided that if sex self ID comes through I will be identifying as male and using the men facilities with my husband for safety reasons, as the red flagged males will be in the females and I don't want my children anywhere near men who don't respect women's boundaries.

I will also be looking for shops and other services who retain sex segregated spaces and will only use these and if not I will stay home...I won't be the only woman to do this. I predict women will simply withdraw from using spaces which are now unisex and will stay home.

That said if any company is willing to stand up for women's rights to privacy they will have a lot of female customers.

I can't wait until this trend to finishes and we go back to the only the old school transexuals again. That said the damage to women's right might take years to recover from this make attack.

why do you think spaces such as toilets and changing rooms are segregated by sex?

In this country? Social norms with their history in Victorian values. Some things held up as "women's safe spaces" have their history in "women know your place" spaces. Ask yourself, if all facilities were originally created with a woman as the default human, and a woman's needs automatically catered for, how much segregation would actually exist in Britain today?

The comfort and privacy of women matters as much as their safety

And what if it were both 100% safe AND 100% private? What then?

But if sex self ID goes through it will not just be trans women it potentially any number of the UK's 33 million men entering our spaces

Well no, not any of our 33 million men. Only, at a push, any of our several thousand sex offenders with an interest in strangers as victims in public places. Pretty niche. And even then, they'd only want to access those spaces if there was an increased opportunity to commit their crimes, which I'm suggesting there WOULDN'T be if security and privacy were only slightly improved.

I have to say again rat thank you for debating this, you are the only person who has given a somewhat sensible thought out argument to the points raised.

Why hasn't this been done at the national level?

Ask yourself, if all facilities were originally created with a woman as the default human, and a woman's needs automatically catered for, how much segregation would actually exist in Britain today?

Probably not - but we live in a patriarchy, where the backdrop is that MALES commit 98% of sexually violent crimes. When the day comes that that figure is drastically reduced, or is 50/50, then I'll be happy to talk about unisex spaces. Men haven't done enough for women to consider them as a safe class of people. Quite the opposite. They rape, attack and frighten women and it's no surprise we don't want them in all women spaces. Maybe TRA's should concentrate on building up the trust of women before shoving their way into their spaces.

And what if it were both 100% safe AND 100% private? What then?

Fabulous! Bring it on! But that will never be the case when male bodied people are there. Do you really think a male bodied person grows up without male entitlement because they don't identify as Male? There are studies that show that people treat newborns differently based on their sex FFS. My son is not yet 2 and has male privilege. No amount of "womaning" can undo that any more than I can shirk my white privilege

Well no, not any of our 33 million men. Only, at a push, any of our several thousand sex offenders with an interest in strangers as victims in public places.

Sex offenders don't walk around with their crimes tattooed on their forehead. If a man walks into my changing rooms, how am I to know if he is trans, normal, or a sex offender?

You haven't even suggested that those assaults on schoolgirls happen in gender neutral toilets, so the point you're making is more an appeal to emotion than anything more substantial, isn't it?

Your lack of empathy is worrying.

It doesn't matter where these occurred, the women deserve single sex spaces when they are in a state of undress. As a result.

Their boundaries are theirs to draw. You have a persistent need to create ever more convoluted and strangulated solutions to the redrawing of those boundaries by men.

There are a considerable number of influential transactivists in this country going out of their way to dismantle sex segregation to as young an age as possible.

Riding roughshod over safeguarding protocols. Maintaining that confidential disclosure should be promoted, multi agency intervention lessened, and parental input minimised, dismissed, or even attacked. See link below.

For me, and many women, the answer is no.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

You still have the discomfort of having a male bodied person in a women's changing room.
The comfort and privacy of women matters as much as their safety

A trans man may have a vulva and vagina, but look entirely male

I'm not in any way challenging the need for single sex spaces, I strongly feel that women's spaces should be protected

I'm just interested to understand different POV on how a biological female who presents as a very masculine male, would fit into the use of female only spaces

So by male bodied does that include transwomen who are biologically male (with a penis) AND transmen who are biologically female, with female genitals, but to all intents and purposes look startlingly male? I wouldn't feel comfortable or safe in a changing room with a 'woman' looking like this, for example. But they have XX chromosomes and female genitalia.

I'm using the hypothetical example of a transman like Buck Angel purely as a point of discussion. I'm not suggesting that women should not be entitled to feel safe in sex segregated spaces. I'm just interested in where the line is drawn for 'male bodied'

@bananafish81 I have precisely zero issue with a trans man using female spaces. The fact they present as Male is no more relevant than a woman who is feminine. Spaces are segregated based on sex not appearance

If transmen feel comfortable using the gents, go for it. If they want to use the ladies, they're perfectly entitled.

To me, it's a non problem as it applies to so few women and doesn't affect safeguarding.

@goatwithacoat you have summed up my exact feelings on the matter. Completely agree with your post.

I’m feeling increasingly angry that women are made to justify why we want sex segregation.

Maybe men should justify why they are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of VAWG. Then maybe they could sort that shit out.

Then come back and ask- ask, not demand- if women still want sex segregation. And if we do, then accept that.

Maybe men should justify why they are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of VAWG. Then maybe they could sort that shit out.

Yep. Once that looks a bit better, I'll think about not kicking up a fuss about sex segregation. Until then, I'll be defending a woman's right to not have men around

I think rat has a very valid point. Women don't primarily object to the very few transwomen using the ladies. What we are concerned about is the disrespectful biological males who will use this legislation to use the ladies whenever they wish to. The 'Oh, you can't stop me becasue today I am a woman'. and 'I'll pee in the sink, because I have a female penis' types. There is no getting away from the fact that a significant minority of men do NOT respect women or their spaces.

THAT is who we are trying to stop, not genuine transwomen. I am surprised that transwomen don't get that this puts THEM at risk too.

I am surprised that transwomen don't get that this puts THEM at risk too
Quite a few do get this, but they are drowned out in this too.