Trans and third space?

[Teachtolive]

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

I reckon youre in for a loooooooooooooooooooong wait

That’s ok. I can wait.
Maybe I could put some stickers up in the meantime. Kill some time.

Coming to this very late so I haven’t read all the aruguments being put forward, but here’s my twopennorth.

I do not believe there should be third spaces. I do not believe that there should be anything in place, structural speaking, that suggests in any way, shape or form that it is possible to change sex. I have come to this quite slowly over the last few months, but I feel my mind is quite made up now.

For those suffering from the severe mental health condition that is sex dysphoria, we should be spending money on giving those people proper mental health treatment and support that allows them to accept their sexed body for what it is, and allow them to present how they like but knowing that they are still a man or a woman. I believe that this is a pretty small number of people.

For the rest - the fetishists, the narcissists and all the rest, I don’t want a penny of my taxes spent in indulging or validating their nonsense.

Sex is not assigned at birth.
It is not possible to change sex.

Those have to be the starting points for any discussion,

I know others on this board don't agree, but if a trans person has had full surgery, I would absolutely support them using their preferred bathroom. I have a trans friend (transman) who it's been obvious since I met him at 11 was supposed to be a boy. He got a GRC when he was 16-17ish and got surgery a couple of years later. He is absolutely a man, and it would be painful for him to have to use a 'trans' bathroom in front of acquaintances who he really wouldn't want to know that he was born a woman.

I know it's seen as different the other way round, but still, I wouldn't have a problem personally with 'full' transwomen sharing a toilet etc. with me. Besides, you wouldn't know, would you?

Completely get that this is already allowed btw, and do absolutely object to self ID. But I often think of my friend whilst reading these threads, and some posters do seem to forget people who have had the corresponding genetalia since they were in their late teens/ early 20s, are not an increased risk to anyone, and it would be absolutely life destroying to have to reveal intimate details of their medical history and painful past to every Tom dick and Harry.

I think this says it all..

That was not directe at your friend Autumn

For those suffering from the severe mental health condition that is sex dysphoria, we should be spending money on giving those people proper mental health treatment and support that allows them to accept their sexed body for what it is, and allow them to present how they like but knowing that they are still a man or a woman. I believe that this is a pretty small number of people.

Do you have any trans friends? If so, did you know them before they transitioned?

No. Would knowing any change the fact that it is not possible to change sex and it’s a complete and utter lie to tell anyone they can? And you can’t get a GRC when you’re 16-17, and your friend isn’t absolutely a man, a man is an adult human male and your friend is, and always will be, female.

Look how determined the govt are to push this through. It means there is no way to gatekeep women’s spaces.

97% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men. Why are we making access to vulnerable women easier?

97% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men. Why are we making access to vulnerable women easier?

Aaaand 84% of serious sexual assault is committed by an intimate partner, a person known to the victim or a family member. And 72% of all sexual assault happens in the victim's home, the perpetrators home or an OPEN public space, such as a park or the street.

Which would rather suggest that where women are most vulnerable is in their own homes, and the most dangerous men are their partners.

I think you'd have a tough time, given the stats, trying to show that banning trans women from using the ladies' is a "proportionate means to a legitimate aim".

www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_394500.pdf

Data shows that unisex spaces are associated with an increased risk to women.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Rat - I know the data re intimate partners.

Has it occurred to you that one of the reasons few assaults happen in private female spaces is because sex segregation offers a level of protection?

Data shows that unisex spaces are associated with an increased risk to women.

120 reported incidents (of no specified severity) in unisex changing rooms over TWO YEARS in a UK population of 65 MILLION.

Just think about the stats you're posting here, will you?

A third space is not a proportionate response to 120 "incidents" over 2 years over such a large population and countless visits to gender neutral facilities.

What IS a proportionate response is IMPROVED PRIVACY AND SECURITY.

Has it occurred to you that one of the reasons few assaults happen in private female spaces is because sex segregation offers a level of protection?

Of that we're true there would be more victims of strangers. Or do you think men only assault their partners because they can get their hands on any strangers in their local changing rooms? Because that's BARMY.

That’s not what I said Rat - stranger assault and intimate partner assault are separate (though linked issues - men who are violent and assault publicly also often assault partners) issues.

My point is that the reason stranger assault doesn’t happen more often in private spaces is because of sex segregation to an extent.

Tbh I don’t actually think toilets are the biggest issue, I think other female spaces are much more of a concern, but you seem keen to keep talking about toilets 🤷🏻‍♀️

Tbh I don’t actually think toilets are the biggest issue, I think other female spaces are much more of a concern, but you seem keen to keep talking about toilets

One issue at a time matey, one issue at a time. And I agree, toilets and changing rooms aren't the biggest "issue", but they should therefore be the easiest to solve, shouldn't they? And they are the instance in which a third space is so commonly offered up, so it seemed in keeping with the thread.

Of course you are welcome to deal with one issue at a time, Rat.

I’m going to multi task, I think, given the chair of the Women and Equalities commission’s stance.

1. 90% of sexual assaults happen in unisex spaces, whilst only 10% in single sex spaces. Unisex is not a solution, third spaces are.

1. Since Ireland has passed sex self ID, the numbers of sexual assaults against women has been raising significantly month on month and show no sign of slowing down. The Irish government refused to release the figures for this month, so I am guessing it is even higher now.

1. Accepting male attracted men with GD who have no past crime record and have surgerically removed their penis, was done as there are so few of them (5000) Even if we agreed at this point, the GRC needs tightening to refuse sex offenders one and make sure the pretenders don't get one.Which would be near impossible unless you made penis removal compulsary, which we can't.

1. The new lot of men wanting to access women's spaces ring many red flags. They are not willing to go through a simple process to safeguard women.

The GRC is cheaper than a citizenship application, less humiliating than an disability assessment and we have to pay for doctors certification for that too. They is no reason they shouldn't have to jump a few hoops in order to access women's spaces and making the change permanently. No more Pip/Peppa men.

5.Even if there is 2% of the population who claim they feel like women, that is still small enough numbers. If we were to build one user cubical in all new big buildings, in addition to sex segregated male and females and a disabled toilet.
Wait a few years and trans women will always be close enough to a toilet they can use.
My friend with a teenage child who requires a hoist to change, are limited to maybe 50 changing places across the UK. The rest of the time they have to change the child on the floor or go home. Let's build more toilets for the disabled people first. Men who wear dresses can always use the men's. Where they are perfectly safe, as everyone just wants to wee.

6.Although it is often quoted how dangerous the men's toilets are for men who feel like a woman, as most of them are clearly men, I honestly can not see them having any trouble in there and whilst there are several websites full of crimes committed by men who claim to be women, often in women's spaces. The trans lobby has not managed to cite ONE incident of this actually happening in the men's bathroom. Which seem to indicate that men on the whole don't care, who they owe with and certainly Hope Lye uses male toilets all the time and has had no trouble.

My conclusion is no to unisex spaces, build an single occupancy toilet in addition to men, women and disabled in all big new builds. Men have to except all biological men in their bathroom and if any attacks happen in the future. Don't worry that is a crime and the police will jail the man responsible.

All sorted :)

Seems an impractical approach to discussion smile but you do you

Thanks for the condescension Rat, dunno why that’s helpful.

Ho hum, I was just being jovial and gently teasing; it wasn't ill-natured or meant as condescending. These things never translate though, sorry about that.

Ach, tone is hard on here.

The last person who said “you do you” to me was an angry TRA who had just said I was a “disgusting transphobic bitch” 😂

@Chalkhillblu3 I agree, re the "outrageously glamorous, get into womens' spaces and organisations... flaunting their 'perfect' constructed bodies yet saying no one can ask them about their surgeries." I saw a trans girl last weekend who was around 6' tall, in a crop top with makeup and getting a friend to take glamour photos. I thought, this was probably an 'average-looking' guy, but now as a woman, he is catwalk material: unusually tall, no hips, add makeup and heels and hey, presto.
Being a human woman is NOT wearing makeup, high heels. It's so much more than that. I agree that current fashion trends are very a/b – no grey area, no foppish men's clothes with ruffles. That can be addressed without surgery.
Note: i am not anti-trans, one of my children is trans, but I am really troubled by the fact that the uptick in trans is really quite focused on the look. If you've been on any forums of trans women/girls, they are all asking "Do I pass?" "Am I pretty?". I really think we need some serious philosophical discussion about what gender means, where we are as a society and why there's a tidal wave of people identifying as trans.

a simple process

A what now?

Do you honestly think we’ve all been sharing spaces with perfectly passing transwomen and not been noticing?

OK, one more time... Yes, if they're perfectly passing, by definition yes you will have been.

And what if you're not comfortable being out as trans? How would you feel going to the Special Segregated Trans Loo?

On the basis therefore that sex segregated spaces should mean that women's only spaces are for those that are biologically female, and if the argument is that regardless of hormones and surgery it is impossible to change sex..

...If a FTM - who was born a natal female, and therefore still XX chromosomes - has a female birth certificate, is highly masculine in appearance, but biologically a female, would it there follow that they should be able to access female only sex segregated spaces?

For example, take Buck Angel - genetically a female, but aside from the fact they're a porn star and therefore their genitals are very well publicly documented, indistinguishable from a biological male

Should Buck Angel use the women's loos and be entitled to swim in Hampstead ponds, by virtue of being biologically female?