Trans and third space?

[Teachtolive]

This is by no means an anti trans thread. I am not anti trans. It could also be an extremely naive question so I apologise in advance if this is in any way offensive, it's not my intention. Would the use of third spaces not solve a lot of issues? So men's, women's and trans bathrooms, men's, women's and trans sporting events etc? Or if it wouldn't solve issues of safe spaces and biological advantages, why not?

In large public spaces it's quite possible to have gender neutral spaces, and work well for families with different sex kids, those with an opposite sex carer etc. In small private spaces this isn't always possible but most do have a gender neutral disabled toilet/changing room etc so that is a good solution. For very small cafes etc just have a gender neutral toilet in the first place.

The far bigger issue is single sex services eg refuges, prisons, boarding schools, hospital wards, dorms in youth hostels etc - something must be done to ensure safety, but also to ensure everyone in society has access to services if required (even if provided separately). It seems entirely appropriate to me to have a couple of specific m-f trans units within the prison infrastructure - separate from the men on the campus, and set up in line with women's prisons (very dangerous women can already be held in specific male prisons) anyone with a conviction for violence should be refused access to trans prisons services. Again having some unisex facilities will work for refuges (men are victims too) but allow most to remain xx chromosome only. There's always a work around but I never want to repeat seeing a person in full makeup, over 6 foot tall, stark naked in the changing room with all his body parts intact - I was a bit mortified, and my 11 year old screamed.

There is really no need to be like that.

You quoted something I said about something else entirely and then replied about sport.

Of course it doesn't have to be in the OP but it's hardly helpful if someone is talking about apples and another person replies about bananas.

I have repeatedly asked for your comments on a couple of points easternedge which you have studiously ignored, forgive me for assuming you’re not bothering to read anything that doesn’t fit your own agenda.

Sport is in the OP

I think jacques may be 'teasing'

so what would you say to that women’s group? Please tell us how you would explain to them that they can no longer swim. What words would you use?

We know men have been in our spaces. We don’t like it but it didn’t happen often and so there was an uneasy gentlewomans agreement. Now it’s going to be unisex spaces everywhere. And yes - reality - reality is that men will be allowed into everything and women will suffer.

So that Muslim women’s swimming group. Tell us what you’d say to them?

Of course you mentioned swimming, which is - last time I checked - a sport...but hey!

I think jacques may be 'teasing’

Indeed. It’s always useful when using the ubiquitous “this thread isn’t about that” to try to avoid answering points, to check the OP!

Are you winding me up? So you're saying that these women know that's true I'm just not supposed to say it out loud?

No. Do you honestly think we’ve all been sharing spaces with perfectly passing transwomen and not been noticing? Nope.,We’ve noticed. We see it. But women are either too polite or too afraid to speak and challenge. And numbers were low. It was reluctantly bourne

Now self ID will allow any man in. We cannot challenge even if we are brave enough. The social norm changes - instead of an occasional situation (fewer than 5000 transsexuals in the uk remember) we now face anyone under the stonewall umbrella - cross dressers, AGP, or just men who see another loophole. That’s not acceptable to me.

We see the reality. It was uncomfortable but manageable before. The future under self ID is not.

All spaces, services and areas will be unisex.
All aid and development agencies stress the need for single sex space/service provision - why is that?
Assaults will rise - already the number of crimes in unisex areas is disproportionate
Women with religious beliefs will be forced out
Women who do not want to share places/services that they are vulnerable in with men will suffer.

Self ID is not a good thing.

Yep

Double checked it before i posted

I actually didn't mention swimming but if that's the way the thread is going then I'm out! It's been mostly really interesting so thanks for that!

I can honestly say I've never encountered a transwoman in a space and felt threatened, frightened or overly polite. I'm genuinely sorry you feel like that but I think you're being very judgemental. Did any of these people threaten or harm you or were they just going about their business.

Also what makes a transwoman less important than a Jewish or a Muslim woman? People are people.

You feel sorry im polite?

Im being judgemental by being polite?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Also what makes a transwoman less important than a Jewish or a Muslim woman? People are people.

It doesn’t make them less important. They aren’t a woman.

Trans women in sport is clearly unfair by you said they were women, so why is it unfair?

Also what makes a transwoman less important than a Jewish or a Muslim woman? People are people
Not less important, just not women.
*

Did any of these people threaten or harm you or were they just going about their business

Yes. As I said. I was harassed and abused for “excluding” transwomen from a miscarriage support discussion.

Hannah Mouncey has broken women’s legs playing AFL. Fallon Fox is bearing up women for a living.

But yeah, never happens. Come on women, shut up and take it.

Stop being well mannered Rufus, you judgemental bastard

Third space would suit a lot of people. But as other have said, the don't want that, they want to be validated in the safe spaces of the sex they are appropriating

People are people

Men aren’t women

smile

Well im beginning to wonder...

Im polite to just about every fucker...even the cunts that don't deserve it

I could stop though....it would be entertaining for the 5 minutes they actually let me stay on mumsnet

It’s a non apology rufus - I’m terrible sorry if you feel... it flips the fault back onto the person rather than actually apologising. Weaselly

I’m sorry if you feel this is ...
I’m sorry if you’re pathetic and scared of men
I’m sorry if you’re too bigoted or dim or unwoke to see how terribly wrong you are.

None of it is a real apology.

How about: I’m sorry you can’t go swimming any more, Sara. The men are more important than you. Go home now. And don’t tarry, in case you need the loo, because that’s full of men as well

No?

could stop though

I say go for it....

bowl

Well!

Ive never heard 'im sorry you were polite...its judgmental'

My mum would be rolling in her grave!!

Or grassing then up to st peter...no one would get to heaven without manners if she had her way

smile

I feel you have an ulterior motive in encouraging me

Reindeer in the wild are pretty feisty rufus

Plenty of one eyed herders up north...

yarn

No idea what you mean Rufus

I’m still waiting to find out:

What the definition of female is

And

Why it’s unfair for TW to play women’s sport if they are indeed women.