To think if my husband’s so adamant he doesn’t want more children....

[QueenofmyPrinces]

I’ve been with my husband for 8 years, married for 5 and we have two sons, a 4.5 year old and a 14 month old.

I would love to have another baby but my husband has said absolutely not, no way, and I have made my peace with that. He wasn’t too keen on a second baby to be honest but he did agree in the end so I accept that it’s my turn to take his wishes seriously now.

Anyway, due to a chronic health condition I have and medication I take I have never been able to have hormonal contraception (the pill, the implant etc) and so have had Mirena Coils since I first met my now husband.

I’ve had awful experiences with them, horrendous insertions and even more horrendous extractions and generally just having unpleasant side effects with would affect me each day.

I have asked my DH whether he would consider having a vasectomy so I don’t have to go through all of that again but he’s said no. I appreciate that it’s his choice to have surgery or not but I feel like after 8 years of contraception being my job and not enjoying the option I had but doing it anyway, I can’t help but think that if he’s the one who is so adamant that he doesn’t want more children then he should be the one to ensure it doesn’t happen?

He has said we can just use condoms and I agree but I asked what we would do if there was an accident with it and he said I would have to take the MAP. I asked what would happen if that didn’t work, or a pregnancy isn’t detected until later, would he just expect me to get a termination?

He went quiet then because what could he say to that?

His current reason for not looking in to having a vasectomy is because he thinks it will hurt

We are now at a standstill!

Any thoughts or advice?

But you do realise that if she keeps the baby, her DH will be VERY UNHAPPY because he REALLY doesn’t want anouther child, under any circumstances.
The only situation where accepting this is ok is if you, as the mother, are happy to also accept raising three kids in your own.
Because the reality is that, in that case, the man is likely to bugger to off, feeing ressentful, unhappy and cheated ‘because she tricked me and refused an abortion when she knew very well I didn’t want a another child’.

It’s not a case of ‘well the OP will be happy as she will have her three kids’.
Telling the OP she shouod just accept it, is also telling her she should acceitbthe risk of being a single mum of 3.

And yes no one can force somebody to be sterilised. The OP clearly isnt. But refusing to accept responsibility in the contraception is also not acceptable. And refusing to accept the very serious health consequences that his decision will have on HER, not in him....And that’s exactly what her DH is doing.
It’s always very easy to take decisions whose consequences won’t be affecting you personally....

As a couple you give and take. It's a bit like sex sometimes you give pleasure sometimes you receive it. Yin and yang.

The OP has done an awful lot of giving and now it's her turn to receive her DP is running away.

He is perfectly entitled to do that but it undoubtedly harm the relationship. He must then accept the consequences but unfortunately so just the OP despite all she has already done.

Massively and hugely selfish decision by the DH.

Rosered as has been stated REPEATEDLY condoms have a SIGNIFICANTLY higher failure rate than vasectomy AND NO the op WON'T then "get what she wants"'as this dickhead will then more than likely pressure her into an abortion or abandon his family!

So you won't accept that dh expected to do the decent thing and have a vasectomy BUT you think it's acceptable that dh expects op to have an abortion if there is a contraceptive failure?! please! No way that's acceptable!

And the dh HAS said that he expects her to use map AND heavily implied he'd expect her to get an abortion - proof you DO need to AT LEAST read OP's posts instead of ARROGANTLY posting without the full info!

I personally have already stated that if it were the woman who was adamantly wanting no more DC then yes I'd expect them to be sterilised.

I can see why pps are thinking you may be THE dh!

No the op can't demand he have a vasectomy but she's perfectly within her rights to refuse piv sex purely on HIS terms - which are that IF a mishap occurred (which they'd BOTH be responsible for that) he expects her to take MAP - which causes major side effects for her, or she has an abortion - which she DOESN'T want and WOULD cause physical pain and other physical effects AND mental trauma - but hey long as he gets to have sex the way HE wants and without ANY inconvenience WHATSOEVER that's fine - NOT!!!!!😡😡😡

Sonandhelpneeded - we enjoy sex - on a fair basis! In OP's position I'd find the dh's attitude and selfishness a huge dampener to the libido. Plus as op herself has said, every time they have sex she'll be worried sick about falling pregnant - how is that conducive to a relaxed happy sex life?!

"It’s always very easy to take decisions whose consequences won’t be affecting you personally...." Precisely! It won't be him taking map and suffering the side effects, it won't be him having an abortion or ending up a single mum to 3!

Okay, so we’ve had the chat.

I told him that he needs to understand the predicament that he’s put me in because if I accidentally get pregnant then it puts me in a situation that I don’t want to be in.

Yes, I wouldn’t mind another child and an accidental pregnancy wouldn’t be a terrible thing in my eyes, but that’s not the same as me actively wanting a third and secretly hoping the condom splits on order to get one. I accept my husband’s decision to have no more children so I absolutely do not want to get pregnant because I can’t bear to think of the potential repercussions if I did.

I said the chance of me accidentally getting pregnant is slim but it happens to people all over the world, all the time and it would be very naive of him to just assume it couldn’t happen to us.

I asked him to think very carefully about how he would feel if I did get pregnant and what he would expect to happen. We spoke again about the MAP and he said he genuinely couldn’t understand why I would prefer to go through an accidental pregnancy and the risks it would bring rather than just take a tablet to prevent it from happening. I suppose I can kind of see his point on that though as the MAP prevents a pregnancy occurring as opposed to ending an existing one so I said that realistically, if I had to then I would be open to taking it. I did say though that the MAP is not guaranteed to work and it is not a long term solution to our contraception issue.

I told him that if I did get pregnant
then terminating wouldn’t be an option and he needed to understand the gravity of that decision.

I asked him how he would deal with it if I got pregnant and he said that he would simply have to accept it and he understands that we’d be having the baby.

We spoke about the risks to me
If I got pregnant and I asked him why he wasn’t concerned about that seeing as he focused on those risks a lot when he was giving an argument about having DC2. He said it was because last time I was wanting to be pregnant whereas this time I don’t want to be pregnant so he doesn’t have to worry that I’m prepared to put myself through something risky. It didn’t make much sense to me but the general gist was that why would he concern himself about something that could happen if I was pregnant when we’re purposefully avoiding pregnancy.

I told him that the only way to 100% ensure I won’t get pregnant is for him to have a vasectomy and would he really not consider it due to him being so sure he doesn’t want more children and because of my worries about relying solely on barrier methods. He looked a bit uncomfortable and said “it just sounds so painful.”

He seems to think that condoms are totally reliable therefore all of my worries are unnecessary as pregnancy is not going to occur.

I told him that we should both take some time to digest the conversation and think deeply about what’s been said. He was in agreement so we have decided to sleep on it and see how we feel in the morning......and by that I mean see how he feels about what risks he is willing to take.

It was quite a successful conversation compared to our previous ones as he could see how seriously I am taking it.

Personally I think he’s going to agree to a vasectomy because talking about a potential third child in a serious manner seems to have made it hit home a bit more about the possible consequences of his current stance.

As an aside, I just want to say thank you to everyone for your comments and support as they are what gave me the strength to talk to my husband so honestly tonight

Does he think vasectomy is more painful than labour?

The thing is, yes sterilisation is an op but so is termination or a csection. So his refusal to have a minor one WILL lead to a serious one for you, if you got pregnant.

Sure, no one should be forced into an op. But he’s a bit selfish isn’t he?

He obviously sees it as ‘only a tablet’ for you. So self centred!

It doesn’t sound like he’s done any research at all about vasectomies, whereas you have done all the research! Hopefully this latest chat encourages him to remove his head from his sphincter and actually do his share of research and deliberating.

Well done Queen - it was a difficult conversation for you, and you stood your ground.

He looked a bit uncomfortable and said “it just sounds so painful.”

I mean, I don't know what to say to this. He doesn't care about your pain and suffering, but thinks a procedure that isn't actually painful is unacceptable for him.

Does he think his actual penis is going to be cut off without anaesthetic, or something?

What's with this idea that no PIV means no sex?

"I'm not up for receiving your ejaculate" only means the death of your sex life if you've got a very phallo-centric view of the whole business. As OP's arse of a husband has.

Try a bit of 'carrot' now you have used a 'stick'.

Honestly, post vasectomy sex is brilliant. After a lull in our sex life when the dcs were little the vasectomy perked it right up.

We are at it now as much as when we first got together, quickies, in the shower, early morning... bloody brilliant

Well done being so honest and straightforward, OP!
I'm glad he's taken on the gravity of it somewhat, but he still seems to be burying his head in the sand with "You can take the MAP" which would lead to a menstrual period probably potentially as painful as a vasectomy, but you might have to do it more than once!
He's still putting responsibility on you to prevent pregnancy once the sperm are in your body, when he can stop it before it even gets there, by getting the snip! And if pain is really his ONLY reason then I'm pretty disgusted in him, and how selfish he is and how little he seems to pay attention to YOUR pain over the years in regards to contraceptives and reproduction.
These days they can do often vasectomies with a little instrument that means the incision is so tiny, a stitch or two isn't even needed! Super disappointing he hasn't even researched it. He's not once considered it seriously, to have not bothered even seeing what's involved. Honestly, it's probably less painful than a visit to the dentist, or your worst period.
I really hope he comes around after looking up the procedure, and seeing it's actually not that bad.

Gah, should've hit refresh.

He's doing a better job of trying to appear reasonable, but I'm not buying it. He's still willing to put you through the constant stress of worrying about condoms and the hormonal horror of the morning after pull - despite the years and the pain you've already endured for his sake - because he's scared of a bit of pain?

He needs to grow up.

Speaking as a man who has had a vasectomy, I'm tempted to use a bit of a cliche and tell your DH to man up. He should do some research. The pain of the procedure is not that great. I found it all fairly straightforward, spent a day on the sofa afterwards with a pack of ice, and being fussed over.

It was nothing compared with the pain I had seen my wife go through in childbirth (plus various distressing experiences more generally with pregnancy) - I was glad to do it for the sake of our relationship, for the woman I love and trust.

He should at the very least be willing to go and see his GP and discuss what's involved and get some answers to any concerns he has.

Re map - WHY didn't you tell him that even "just" taking that could well cause YOU serious pain and side effects given its a large dose of the very hormones your body reacts badly to? I kinda wish there was a tablet you could give this guy that would cause him a similar amount of pain and inconvenience and THEN say "so why should I take that because YOU won't be a grown up and own your own fertility?!"

"why would he concern himself about something that could happen if I was pregnant when we’re purposefully avoiding pregnancy" because he's STILL expecting YOU to risk WORSE effects from a pregnancy than he faces having a vasectomy! When it's HIM that DOESN'T want a baby.

"He looked a bit uncomfortable and said “it just sounds so painful.” " at THAT point I'd have reminded him of all the pain and suffering YOU have already dealt with as a result of the 2 of you having sex the past X years! Fucking hell I'd have gone into great detail on c-section and the aftermath! It's MAJOR abdominal surgery where the muscles are permanently damaged and organs moved around!

"He seems to think that condoms are totally reliable therefore all of my worries are unnecessary as pregnancy is not going to occur" did you tell him the REAL failure stats? Basically 1/5 chance of pregnancy each time you have sex?

Glad you're STARTING to be able to get across to him the REALITIES of his not having a vasectomy. It really sounded previously he was just thinking 'we'll just use condoms and it will be fine' when that's not a realistic approach to take.

Hairystorm - as a bisexual woman I've been wondering the same! Good sex needn't involve a penis!

Moussemoose has a point too. Not that it should be this bloody hard! But point out the benefits of post-vasectomy sex. But then I'd also be tempted to find out if any of our mutual friends had a vasectomy and mentioning to them that he's scared of getting it! I'm willing to bet based on a similar scenario I know of in real life that THEY would say to him he's being pathetic and selfish and to just get on with it!!

How can he still be so blase when hes watched you go through pregnancy and childbirth AND crying in pain due to a coil removal.

Still thinking you can just pop a MAP

You sound lovely Dad.

The irony is that the sort of man who won't have a vasectomy, is inevitably also the sort of man who thinks he's entitled to PIV sex, regardless.

The sort of man who willingly would have a vasectomy, is also the sort who'd be willing to do other stuff in bed, if needed.

These kind of things go hand in hand, because the latter sort of men are decent and caring.

What Dowager said.

Fair enough, Queen.

But let me just agree with this poster:
Honestly, post vasectomy sex is brilliant. After a lull in our sex life when the dcs were little the vasectomy perked it right up.

Same here! Gah, he is so sexy! Even before the menopause, when I had to fight to get the HRT, another side effect I had from Mirena is that my libido was just killed stone cold dead! And no matter how much they cut the strings or we had sex, which is supposedly meant to make the strings go soft, it was dire due to bleeding and it hurt both of us. He's well-endowed and he could always feel the strings. I got it out and I could scarce refrain from jumping his bones. I got pregnant the first month after, MMC, and then pregnant again after ERPC without even another period. It's just got better, and was in the years between his successful vasectomy and my menopause. Believe me, if I had trouble down below I'll be off to the GP for help to keep things going.

And the fucking MAP doesn't work as effectively depending on where you in the cycle. I know so many women who used it and were still pregnant. As pointed out, it is not contraception. I'm so glad I have a husband who stepped up of his own accord. After watching me go through what I did, including ERPC for the MMC, he didn't hesitate. We just had our first childfree holiday in 17 years and it was marvellous!

Imagine a man going in to the GP and telling him his contraception has killed his sex drive. Well, again, trials of the male pill were halted because 10% of the users reported negative side effects, but it's now known that the combination pill contributes to depression in females, but hey, they're women, they can deal. Makes me want to spit!

So is the OP's husband trading in ignorance while being worked into a permanent sterilisation surgery by a crowd of women collaborating together with his wife towards that outcome on the internet? Or does he know about this internet discussion thread as part of the wider family discussion?

Vasectomy is not risk free, long term severe chronic pain outcomes are much more common than they are often perceived to be.

Chronic pain rate occurance stats from a number of national level health bodies:
Canadian Urology Association give the chronic pain outcomes at between 1 and 14% www.cua.org/themes/web/assets/files/vasectomy4017_v4.pdf

14% = up to one in eight

In the U.S. the AUA say quality of life impacting chronic pain occurs in between 1/50 to 1/100 surgeries. www.auanet.org/guidelines/vasectomy-(2012-amended-2015)

British Association of Urological Surgeons, patient advice reports chronic pain in 5-15% of patients. www.baus.org.uk/_userfiles/pages/files/Patients/Leaflets/Vasectomy.pdf
5% = 1 in twenty
15%= 1 in seven

UK National Health Service www.nhsdirect.wales.nhs.uk/encyclopaedia/v/article/vasectomy/#risks

"Long-term testicular pain affects around one in 10 men after vasectomy. The pain is usually the result of a pinched nerve or scarring that occurred during the operation. You may be advised to undergo further surgery to repair the damage and to help minimise further pain."

Journal article on what life is like living with long term genital pain for men:
www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24740527.2017.1328592

Background article on Post vasectomy pain syndrome:
vasectomy-information.com/post-vasectomy-pain-syndrome-scientific-review/

Journal of Urology article on post vasectomy pain syndrome and it's causes:
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/j.1939-4640.2003.tb02675.x

< Awaits the standard Mumsnet 'bast-ing men' type derision, swearing etc. that occurs when these risks are pointed out here about the supposedly 'easy wee snip'>...

@oranek - we KNOW it's not risk-free.

We deal with risk ourselves when we Deal with contraception, get pregnant and go through childbirth? We're well-versed in it. We've had years of experience.

We're much more well-versed than most men.

Vasectomy comes with a risk. But it's dwarfed by the risks women face.

What - you'd only consider it if it were risk-free?!

Awaits the standard Mumsnet 'bast-ing men' type derision

Ah, no - most of us here are with lovely men, who willingly faced the risk for our sakes.

But yes, I absolutely will deride the weak subset of men who won't have a vasectomy. You can be sure of that.

Just to hammer home the point - the good men who willingly do it, completely show up the weak, sub-standard men who won't.

oranek - of course there are risks, but that’s why I said DH should go and talk to GP. Doing that at least shows some seriousness and willingness to take the burden - he can then discuss the options with OP.