To be fed up beyond belief with the trans activists

[snapnfarter]

I'm so sick of the bigotry now. Surely these people just want to have a piss in peace without being hassled?
What rights is it exactly that the trans activists are shit scared that women are going to lose out on?
I wish they'd all just be quiet and let others live their lives how they see fit without reprisal or judgement from narrow minded idiots.
I honestly feel that this debate is just a platform for the bigots to congregate to attack a minority because we all know what attaching ethnic minorities, gays, lesbians etc is just not acceptable. How is this any different?

I find it very sad when women are throwing other women under the bus so men can have more rights.

It makes me wonder why they feel they have to do that

I regularly have to pee with the door open and the buggy in the doorway.

Erm, I'm a woman. I don't want to see anyone else on the toilet.

Here comes the misogyny!

Women, know your limits! Let’s stop pretending that you matter. Or that your safety or rights are important. They’re not. Men have spoken. And they say that a woman wears dresses, likes pink and is always terribly accommodating to men.

For example, if men wanted to put a convicted rapist and child molester in a prison with a mother and baby unit and lots of vulnerable women then that’s what has to happen. Don’t be bigots you silly women. We all know female prisons are asking for it. Just like all women.

And when men decide they want to —win— compete at women’s sport, well you have to let them. Sports are made for men and women’s sport is so boring. A few good men showing you how it’s done should liven things up a treat.

Look, the world is made for men to be the best. Just accept your fate and let men take over womanhood as well as everything else.

Fin.

Not sure what side of the argument you’re on op but I’m on the side of common sense. Have hormone therapy cut off your dick you can use women’s facilities as a trans woman. If you don’t you stay in with the boys. A trans woman will never truly know what it is to be born a woman a person born a woman will never know what it is to be a transwoman. These two groups are not the same and should not compete against each other in sport that is split by sex. The term CIS is a load of unnecessary bollocks . Identifying as something else does not make you that other thing. It does not give you the right to pass yourself off as the thing you have arbitrarily decided you want to be. In society there needs to be rules to protect citizens as a whole. The whims of a small minority should not override the needs of the majority.

Thank you for the link @Elephantinacravat - genuinely very informative.

I think the point the OP is trying to, admittedly very bluntly, make is that whilst some people will discuss the issue with well thought out points backed up by evidence, others will resort to sarcasm, swearing, name calling and not such well thought out comments and end up being more extreme in their outlook, which can transfer to them coming across and sounding transphobic.

Some people post with good points, others do so seemingly more as fun. I reference PositivelyPERF’s comment:
“There’s just no sport in dismantling your arguments, when you don’t even know what your arguments are. Sigh. 😔 I’m away off to find a better class of TRA/handmaiden, but I’ll pop back later...”

It is NOT a game and this is not a point scoring exercise. I realise there are extremes on both sides, which can sometimes obscure the real debate - shame!

I think the men in my office might complain when I identify as a male and use the urinals. Think my boss will die a death.

I think there is a minority of sick individuals out that that would use it for their own gain but on the whole but I do think Mumsnet is very OTT on this and many posters lump all transgender people together which is unfair.

Men are segregated from women in certain situations partly for safeguarding reasons, partly for privacy and dignity. It is generally accepted that men pose a risk to women and so women have carved out certain protections.

At what point do transwomen come out of that 'male risk' group and pose the same risk as women? Is there a line? Where is it?

These aren't goady questions, these are questions I have asked myself and I don't have any answers.

It's not 'lumping transwomen altogether' it's lumping them with men. Because, when all is said and done, that is what they are.

New sofa - Sorry, that made me chuckle.

This is the problem I have with it all though. It appears from a number of the posters in Feminism Chat that they do have a major problem with trans people in general, not the self id Barry who wants to be Barbara this week and use the ladies. I can see the problem with that.
The constant going round and round in circles bashing trans people gets really really fucking boring.

Worth a read to gain some perspective OP

transsexualwomen1.blogspot.com/

'The rest of the universe is more rational and less bigoted'

Yeah, the whole rest of the universe. I'm sure being trans in Saudi or Iraq is a barrel of laughs 

Donkeyhotai my daughter may well use sports centres & schools with communal changing facilities.
Spaces that I previously thought were sex-segregated are not.
Trans people have human rights, I would like to protect womens & girls rights to services, spaces and sports based on their sex, rather that their gender identity.
Admittedly GRC reform won't change much of that - so yes I admit I do have a problem with facilitation of sexual appropriation, or people being allowed to legally change their sex just because of their gender identity.
Sex is a protected characteristic for a reason.

So I saw a picture yesterday of 3 winners in a female race. The 1st place winner was trans gender, 2nd and 3rd place were females. How is this fair???? (Can’t find the link now)
Also what about women only safe spaces such as hostels?? Women who are vulnerable and have escaped from domestic violence then risk having to have a safe space invaded by a man. What about women in prison?? What about my right not to have to get changed or pee alongside someone with a penis. What about top positions in the workplace once again being filled by males because they chose to identify as women. OP I suggest you educate yourself. You are ignorant and naive beyond belief. I’m not a bigot. Trans gender people are indeed people too and I have nothing against them personally. However, in my eyes they are not females and never will be.

I don't agree with self ID at all. It seems to be the most bizarre idea and open to anyone, male or female, who chooses to abuse it for whatever reason.

But

I cannot see how trans men or trans women can exist in society if we can't agree on some level how they can live with dignity and without prejudice.

It's just disingenuous to say that you want individuals to be treated with dignity but they can't use the women's toilet. You cannot expect someone living, dressing and appearing as a woman to then use the men's toilet. I'm not talking about their safety. It is not treating a person with dignity if you expect them to announce a very personal aspect of their life to a bunch of strangers, or possibly worse, acquaintances or work colleagues who might not know.

If we disagree with this proposal then I think that we do have to have another plan that protects the rights and dignity of all. Otherwise what you are actually asking for is for trans gender people to be banned.

Snapnfarter I've never seen anything bashing trans people, only posts about biological men with male bodies in women's refuges and womens prisons, winning womens sporting events because they have msle lung capacity and muscle mass and skeletal development, and the fear that self id will mean no man can be challenged about being in a female space where women and girls are vulnerable.

People lie to get what they want. It is surprising that so many people think sex offenders and would be sex offenders won't take advantage of self id to do so, if it comes in. It's not even law yet and Karen white has already done it in the UK. In Canada where it is law a sex offender lied in order to get into a women's refuge and assault vulnerable women who should have been safe.

The law as it stands gives actual trans people extra rights. Self ID is what people have a problem with.

It's just disingenuous to say that you want individuals to be treated with dignity but they can't use the women's toilet. You cannot expect someone living, dressing and appearing as a woman to then use the men's toilet. I'm not talking about their safety. It is not treating a person with dignity if you expect them to announce a very personal aspect of their life to a bunch of strangers, or possibly worse, acquaintances or work colleagues who might not know.

I have never seen anyone suggest that a fully transitioned trans woman should use the men’s toilet. Not once.

@snapnfarter

I think we can all agree that 99% of the trans community are transitioning for genuine reasons. It’s the 1% that go and mess it all up. It’s that exact same 1% that we are protesting against.

We need to keep women’s spaces purely women’s to protect them from that 1%.

Trans gender people are indeed people too and I have nothing against them personally
How will they be treated as people then when they are not allowed to participate in the workplace, take part in sports or even use a public toilet?

Please someone explain to me what you envisage the treatment of trans men and women will be like? And please don't say it isn't up to you to solve. It is up to you to provide an alternative if you are disagreeing with the current proposal.

From what I understand trans women already use the ladies if they wish - fully transitioned or not (I understand others prefer to use the disabled loos). Or am I wrong and how would that be policed if trans women were not allowed in the ladies unless fully transitioned?

Deathgrip

Really? I think that you should read the threads more carefully.

What do you think it means when people say "trans women arent women" or that trans women have grown up as males, benefited from that socialisation and have male body types ie height, muscle and bone structure and that even having surgery won't change that?

What they are saying is that they will never accept a trans woman. Admittedly that isn't all posters but there are more than a few with that attitude.

Please someone explain to me what you envisage the treatment of trans men and women will be like? And please don't say it isn't up to you to solve. It is up to you to provide an alternative if you are disagreeing with the current proposal.

Well I believe that trans people should be able participate in the workplace and I don't understand how anyone is stopping them doing that?

Toilets, I would advocate for third spaces, but I haven't seen much campaigning for it.

Sports, I am afraid that you have to participate with your own sex. There is just not getting around it.

To be honest though, I think all of the issues that this whole thing is bringing up just shows that the idea that one can 'change sex' and become something they are not is just ludicrous. There are no easy answers because there is a huge clash of rights.

Weetabix - no one is saying that trans people can’t work, rest or play.

As it stands HIV women can protest about a transwoman using the toilet. They can either carry on and ignore them, or leave.

If GRC goes through, they could essentially report it as a hate crime and get the woman prosecuted for protesting

Donkey as a feminist, you know that women as a class are at a high risk of violence from men as a class. It’s why sex segregated spaces exist in the first place.

Take your average man. And he says “actually I am a woman”. At what point in that sentence does he become less of a threat to women? By what mechanism does that happen?

The idea that some feminists are literally denying the existence of male violence to support this change in law is utterly shocking to me.

Am I concerned about transwomen with dysphoria, who’ve had treatment, who’ve had surgery? No, not in the least.

But self-ID is a deliberate move away from the idea that trans people have dysphoria. It’s a deliberate move towards men keeping their Male privelege and also benefitting from laws that protect women. If you want to be a woman because you’re dysphoric, be a woman - good for you! If you’re not dysphoric, why do you want to be a woman? Why do you want to remove a process that safeguards against abuse rather than trying to reform it? Why do you use this as an excuse to go online and abuse women? These are the men we should be concerned about, and the men who will benefit from self ID. You think they won’t? Men go to greater lengths, every day, to abuse women.

A pp asked you some very pertinent questions and you’ve ignored them. I know you’re tying yourself up in knots because you want to remain on the “right side of history”. I get it. Not long ago I felt the same, as did many women here. But I realised, it doesn’t matter how much you capitulate to the manipulative TRAs spearheading this move - it will never be enough. They will always want more, and they don’t give a fuck about women despite insisting they are women. They want to erase women.

In the olden days, a trans person would be looking to 'pass' as their desired sex. Not sure about the stats but I assume more that 20% would aspire to surgery/drugs to help achieve their goal.

There's an assistant in a store near me (beloved by teenage girls). They are male bodied and have a beard.

They wear womens clothes (I know because I once went to pay and they had on the same outfit as me!). So slap on a blouse and trousers - keep the face fuzz and I assume the testicles and what, you say you are a woman? In what way?