To be fed up beyond belief with the trans activists

[snapnfarter]

I'm so sick of the bigotry now. Surely these people just want to have a piss in peace without being hassled?
What rights is it exactly that the trans activists are shit scared that women are going to lose out on?
I wish they'd all just be quiet and let others live their lives how they see fit without reprisal or judgement from narrow minded idiots.
I honestly feel that this debate is just a platform for the bigots to congregate to attack a minority because we all know what attaching ethnic minorities, gays, lesbians etc is just not acceptable. How is this any different?

Third Spaces doesn't help with men taking part in women's sport.

Nope, I really think with sport it's your biological sex and that's it. I guess you could have a separate category for trans people? But then there would probably be issues with hormone levels etc within that? I don't know.

What I do know is that biological men, however far down the transition road they are, should not be competing with females. And certainly not the likes of Rachel McKinnon and Hannah Mouncey.

But try to make gender less of an issue in schools so that there just isn't such an issue.

Well that's what gender critical feminists have been trying to do for a long time!

weetabix absolutely - to me the aim should be that kids are helped to be accepting of boys who like dresses (for example) or girls who aren't girly. It feels a huge step backwards to say if a boy likes dresses or other boys then he must really be a girl!

And we are massively letting bullies and thugs off the hook if we say male spaces are too dangerous for trans women or trans girls. Are we just accepting that situation?

I would hope that my views are respectful and that they wouldn't discriminate against. anyone. I don't disagree with anyone choosing to live or dress however they please.

I do realise though that there will be times when results of individuals will clash and at these times some restrictions will have to be applied.

I might think I should have the right to make as much noise as I want in my own home. The law would disagree though and my individual right is restricted in favour of the rights of my neighbours.

We all have to accept this in a civilised society.

A woman is an adult human female with XX chromosomes.

A man is an adult human male with XY chromosomes.

These scientific facts are not subjective and cannot be altered.

Gender is a fluid social construct. People should be free to express themselves as whatever gender they feel comfortable.

Sex segregated spaces exist to protect people (almost exclusively female people) from male violence or the risk/harm caused due to male violence (domestic violence refuges, rape crisis centres), or for reasons specific to their biology (abortion clinics, women’s sport).

Trans women already have their rights adequately protected under the Equality Act.

The additional rights that will be conferred on trans women if they are ‘legally recognised as women’ relate only to their ability to access sex-segregated spaces, which, as biological males, they do not require.

Women have fought for centuries to win the right to vote, to work, to be paid fairly for doing the same job as a man, to not be pregnant if they don’t want to be. Those battles have been hard fought and it is offensive to suggest that that collective, shared struggle is something that can just be identified into or out of.

What does it actually mean to ‘live as a woman’. When my biology (periods, pregnancy, childbirth, contraception) is taken out of it, I just live as a human being. My internal thoughts are not gendered. As far as I can see, the definition of ‘living as a woman’ for trans women means ‘passing as an object for the male gaze’.

From my perspective, transsexual women who have fully, surgically transitioned are excluded from this debate. The issue for me is solely that under the self-ID proposals, trans women can bring their penises into women and female children-only spaces and insist that their male genitalia is recognised as female anatomy. To question this is to be a ‘bigot’.

I hope that helps you a little OP. And that this thread has left you a little more educated than when you started it.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts now that you’ve delved a bit deeper into the debate.

Well that's what gender critical feminists have been trying to do for a long time!

And I support that. What I don't support is gratuitous and almost gleeful misgendering or hate speech and that applies equally to both sides of the argument.

But I was talking very specifically about the situation in my area. An entire college on lock down because of a gang mugging people. They belong to a specific ethnic group. My question was do we restrict everyone in that group to protect the freedom of everyone else? The question was asked what sex these muggers are.

The point I was making is that actually ethnicity is pretty irrelevant. You get criminals from all ethnicities and backgrounds: white murderers, Muslim terrorists, black armed robbers, Asian paedophile grooming gangs, just as examples.

But there is one thing that overwhelmingly these criminals have in common and that is their biological sex. It is recognised that men (as a class) from all ethnicities pose a risk.

Obviously there is only so far you can take it. No you can't say that all black people have a curfew because that would curtail the rights of that group too much. What you can do, and what we do do, is take measure to reduce the risk of violence from men. And that is why we have certain safeguarding laws to protect people from men. Laws which do not curtail men from going about their daily lives, but do go some way to keeping women and girls safe. And some people want these safeguarding laws eroded. So unless you are saying that you don't believe single sex spaces are necessary, because we don't segregate by race, then men need to be kept out of women's spaces. And that includes transwomen.

What does it actually mean to ‘live as a woman’. When my biology (periods, pregnancy, childbirth, contraception) is taken out of it, I just live as a human being

But there must be more to being a woman than periods, pregnancy and childbirth. Because natal women that don't experience these are still women. So there are aspects of being a woman that trans women share with natal women surely?

This argument is just so complicated maybe because it deals with identity and it seems that there are as many descriptions of identity as there are people. I couldn't explain what it is to live as a woman. I have no idea. I can't say what of me us because I'm a woman and what is because I'm me.

I have to leave now. I'm not avoiding questions but I have a hospital appointment.

Thank you to everyone that has debated on here in such a grown up respectful way though. It's been really interesting to discuss this without a pile on or name calling (on the whole at least).

And I support that. What I don't support is gratuitous and almost gleeful misgendering or hate speech and that applies equally to both sides of the argument.

What 'hate speech' have you seen from gender critical feminists which in any way equated to the 'die in a fire TERF, I'm want to cut a TERFs throat, let's fuck up some TERFs, enjoy your erasure women' etc.

I do not see 'misgendering' as hate speech, its stating reality although I am willing to suspend that for transwomen who are respectful of women. I will 'gleefully' as you put it, call Karen White and his ilk, 'he' though.

Sorry but I do see misgendering as hateful.

There is no need.

No one should say they hope people die in a fire, or anything similar. That's hateful.

But it doesn't mean that there is no transphobia on MN because there is.

But there must be more to being a woman than periods, pregnancy and childbirth. Because natal women that don't experience these are still women. So there are aspects of being a woman that trans women share with natal women surely?

What aspects of being a woman do all transwomen share with all women?

Not experiencing pregnancy, childbirth, periods because your female reproductive system doesn't work properly or because you don't want kids and so have to find suitable contraception to ensure that you don't get pregnant, are uniquely female experiences. No man has ever experienced that.

Not experiencing pregnancy, childbirth, periods because you have a cock and balls and a male reproductive system is a uniquely male experience. No female has ever had that experience.

So there are aspects of being a woman that trans women share with natal women surely?

Why would you assume that? Their experience of the world is unlikely to be the same as the average woman unless they appear indistinguishable from women. Which is very rare. And even then they are processing it through the filter of someone socialised as a male.

Sorry but I do see misgendering as hateful.

Am I not allowed to misgender Karen White then? Is that hateful?

MN doesn't generally allow misgendering anyway, and if you see anything on MN that is transphobic then report it and it will be deleted. I have done this in the past and stuff has been deleted.

Sorry but I do see misgendering as hateful.

There is no need.

No one should say they hope people die in a fire, or anything similar. That's hateful.

How are these things in any way equal?

Yes I struggle to see how calling someone who is male 'he' is in anyway comparable to the verbal violence that women have been subjected to.

Ereshkigal

They aren't equal. But that doesn't mean that misgendering isn't hateful. I think it is.

Calling someone fat is to me hateful. Clearly not the same as hoping someone dies in a fire, but to me, still done with the intent of hurting someone and causing upset.

So should we call Karen White "she"?

So I have to call Karen White 'she'?

Why would anyone want to erode safeguarding rules and womens protections? and One wonders why we are putting our women at risk to make them more comfortable. Important questions. Any answers from posters who think this is ok? In fact, have we ever received answers to these questions over the many months of threads?

Lol Eresh.

Its an important question though. Because it illustrates that we are placing some sort of sliding scale of moral value on how we refer to someone's sex. So I can call KW 'he' because he did a terrible thing, but where is the line? How bad does the thing have to be before someone can start speaking the truth when it comes to pronouns? What about Jess Bradley and 'her penis'?

As I said, I will generally refer to transwomen as she, but this idea that misgendering is 'hate speech' is an interesting one.

But there must be more to being a woman than periods, pregnancy and childbirth. Because natal women that don't experience these are still women. So there are aspects of being a woman that trans women share with natal women surely

I agree with @vegemitesandwich that suffering the absence of all those things is something that only natal women would feel and trans women would not be able to identify with other than in an abstract, thought experiment way.

But I would also say that pregnancy, childbirth, contraception, abortion, etc all pertain to the biological, sexual characteristics of women. They are not characteristics of the female gender which is a different thing, the definition of which is at the heart of this debate, I feel. There is, and cannot be, one single definition of female gender. Because gender is inherently fluid and you will find biological women at every single point along the spectrum. From Marylin Monroe, to the butchest lesbian. If you are born with XX chromosomes then you factually live as a woman. That can’t be disputed. But it is possible to possess XX chromosomes and yet live your whole life without ever wearing a dress or putting on makeup. Does that mean they have not lived as a female?

That’s the thing. No one can even explain what ‘living as a woman’ means without reducing it to superficial, feminine stereotypes.

Weetabix

What about the bloke who decides to be Mary three days a week and Martin 4 days a week. Do we call him a he or a she?

See everyone is either a he or a she. How can anybody be both? What about any children he may have - is s/he to be called mum or dad? He can't be mum one day and dad another. It doesn't work like that. What about his nieces and nephews... Are they to call him aunt Mary or uncle Martin? How blooding confusing for the children.

To bring back someone's point about man, woman or other (it may be your point weetabix. I don't have time to look for it) - then someone who can't decide if they are male or female must surely belong in "other".

There is, and cannot be, one single definition of female gender.

Exactly. There is not a single thing which joins all women together, that all women will have experienced, that doesn't relate to the material reality of having a biologically female body.

As I said, I will generally refer to transwomen as she, but this idea that misgendering is 'hate speech' is an interesting one.

I won't refer to them as "she". I will avoid pronouns altogether as I don't believe she is appropriate for a male and I don't like being controlled by emotional blackmail and gaslighting.

I won't refer to them as "she". I will avoid pronouns altogether as I don't believe she is appropriate for a male and I don't like being controlled by emotional blackmail and gaslighting.

Totally fair enough.

Actually thinking about it, on here about certain people I generally use 'they' if I can't bring myself to use 'she'. Apparently that is also misgendering but... Meh.