AIBU to state that no one thinks Self ID for Trans gender people should be passed as law.

[Shiklah]

Thank you for reading my thread.

I would appreciate respectful debate on this issue as I am utterly bewildered. Please do not attack me and call me a transphobic person. I am not. I work with vulnerable women and children, including victims of grooming gangs, in Calderdale. I live in a town very close to where Karen White lived and abused his victims which has made me research this topic.

I posted on MN yesterday asking for views on the media calling Karen White - a male rapist - she. I have researched and read continuously for the last 24 hours and am now utterly bewildered. It seems that the government, media and many trusted organisations are willing to pass over the rights of women and children to support the rights of men who may or may not be transgendered.

Transgendered people have dysphoria, this means that being a trans woman and being a rapist are exclusive - you cannot be one if you are the other. it makes no sense. It seems very clear that if self ID goes thru then any man which a personality disorder and fetish can ID as a woman and use this loop hole to gain access to hospitals, prisons, detention centres, children's homes, refuges and rape crisis centres. As women, we must protect those that are vulnerable, it cannot be right that to meet the needs of a maligned group (trans gender people) we sacrifice the rights of another?

We have a system that seems flawed - maybe it needs to change, maybe it needs review, I am not trans and would like to hear from those that are to advise on this, please help me understand........ but AIBU to state that self ID is unacceptable to women, children and truly transgendered people who will suffer if the likes of Karen White are considered to be 'women'?

Thanks for reading.

Does anyone have any idea about this?

There are loads of threads about this on here, especially on the Feminism Chat section.

There are threads everyday on this - you might find more discussion on those.

Yes have a look at feminism chat. They're all over it there but you'll only get one point of view

Yes have a look at feminism chat. They're all over it there but you'll only get one point of view

Perhaps you'd like to help OP and discuss the other point of view?

I agree with you, it's baffling. Hopefully the Karen White issue will help common sense prevail but somehow I doubt it.

Bit many people think that gender identity is a feeling and not necessarily dysphoria or what not. To get to the route of this you have to talk to people under the age of 25 who grew up with rules against hurting each others feelings and safe spaces. An entire generation has been raised to respect feelings and treat those who question or injure feelings as violent or abusive. No wonder the poor sods think that not using someines preferred pronoun is a form of violence.

I completely agree with you, OP.

There are many who wont, but the arguements seems to come down to cases like Karen White (and all the others) dont count. And youre a bigot.

Have you filled in the Government consultation on self ID?

But there are evidently lots of people who DO think it should be passed as law though? If there weren't it wouldn't be a discussion anywhere

The minority that do want self ID were trying to get it passed without any consultation with women and absolutely no debate. They have managed for a long time to prevent the majority of the public finding out about this but thanks to the campaigns by womens groups and indivudals it is finally starting to leak out into mainstream.

All those who blindly accepted the TWAW #nodebate thought they were being very PC and inclusive but had not considered the threat to women and children. To be fair, even now, it's clear that many do not actually care about the safety, dignity and privacy of women but thankfully many are starting to wake up and say, hang on a minute...

Personally I think that when you change your gender you don't change your sex. Therefore sex segregated areas should remain. Including sport, aws, etc.

It's time that transpeople started campaigning for their own spaces which many people would support.

Thank you for your replies.

I have been on the feminist section and learned a lot from reading old and new posts. I was hoping I could find someone whop would think AIBU with my statement and give an explanation why self ID could be a good idea. I cannot get one anywhere and am not thinking it is only still standing due to women being fearful of speaking out and men not caring as it doesn't affect them. That is my direct experience.

A few weeks ago, debating KW with another local they said that 1000s of children would die if this didn't go thru - I asked why? Thousands of children hadn't died every year because they hadn't been allowed to change gender in previous years. They were insistent and showed me 'evidence' that was basically, blog posts. I suggested that stoking up gender roles and allowing children who do not conform to believe they have gender dysphoria was irresponsible and could cause problems at which point my friend started actually shouting at me, calling me names and that they 'expected better' from me.

This is madness.

Your friend is one of those people I described above. They just haven't thought about what self ID means to women. They have been groomed.

Yes. It is madness and defies logic. Complete insanity.

Apparently there is a discussion on Women's Hour on radio 4 tomorrow about the new gender recognition act, if anyone is interested.
I will be at work so can't listen, sadly.

I agree OP.

I haven't actually found anyone who can give me an explanation as to why self id would be a good idea.

If someone has GD then it's a medical condition that needs careful monitoring.

Only if they don't have this would they want to push for self id as far as I can see. Because they can't fool the doctors.

Even with the current careful monitoring system we can see that predators if they are cunning enough like Karen White and others are able to take advantage of it.

So if self id were brought in with no monitoring at all it would be a complete disaster for women and girls especially.

Oh excellent, I hope Woman's hour provide some balance at last.

It is a very odd situation. The majority of people I have spoken to have no idea what 'trans' means. They believe it related to effeminate man who have surgery and hormone treatment and like 'as a woman' that is try and or do pass as a woman in public. When I have told this group provable facts I have to hand, that KW was a male rapist placed in a prison with vulnerable women, that the person who is advising the government took her son to Thailand and arranged surgery that removed his genitals (some of my clients have experienced FGM so it is a pertinent comparison), that 85% of 'trans women' have a penis, that some of these 'trans women' want access to women's hospital wards, changing rooms, guide groups etc. When given these facts they are utterly bewildered and sometimes angry and sometimes say I must be lying. I am known to be very plain speaking, frank and honest so this has thankfully been rare.

BUT when I speak to some people, they have often either looked at their shoes and refused to discuss for fear of 'sounding old fashioned' or 'bigoted' or because 'it doesn't have anything to do with me" or "I don't understand it".

Only 2 people (I must have spoken to about 50) have expressed views in favour of self ID. One a close friend who is herself gender non conforming and a lesbian. She also got into a spat on a local facebook group where an elderly lady who was visiting had asked if their was a ladies toilet in the town. She seems utterly convinced that the UK is full of teenagers and children taking their lives and self harming because of this. She also dismisses trans women's sexual offending as a by product of their dysphoria which there is no evidence for. This is a wonderful and intelligent woman who works with victims of domestic violence. When I suggested that TW offended at the same rates men did she went BERSEK calling me names. It is very odd to see someone defending an ideology that seems to harmful to them. The other was a 19 year old man who was convinced "this is what feminists wanted and now they can deal with it"

When a snapshot of one of the most progressive towns in west Yorks, which seems to be the spring source of this muddled thinking, cannot produce any sensible argument for self ID, and AIBU cannot either (I have posted 2 threads and seen no support anywhere) then it seems most likely that:

A majority of people do not know the details of this, when they do they think this is lunacy
A small number of aggressive and socially disinhibited men are pushing this ideology thru by claiming oppression despite being fully aware that what they are doing is unacceptable to a majority of people
The media, MP's, commenters and most men will not speak out because they aren't losing anything (rich/famous people don't end up in a women's refuge or mental health ward). The only women willing to speak out are (and apologies as this could be taken the wrong way and I hold these women in high esteem) unlikely to be 'perfect' (no one is) and therefore without wider support they are torn down.

And yet, the implication from the BBC, Guardian, Observer etc is that a majority feel that self ID and the proposed changes are broadly supported. Are they out of step with their customers or is it a deliberate silencing and why? It is Orwellian and utterly bizarre.

Sorry for the long posts. I have written to my MP and am drafting to penny Mourdant now. I know this is old news to most of you and I appreciate your patience with me very much.

With your background I thought this report might interest you. Fair Play For Women asked women who run and use domestic violence services how the loss of single sex services will affect them;

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FPFW_report_19SEPT2018.pdf

I'm not convinced that Woman's Hour will provide a balanced debate on this I'm afraid.

The BBC seem to be pushing this ideology for some reason.

It's very odd because I thought they were supposed to be balanced and provide a voice for all the different sides.

And some time ago they did do a very good and balanced documentary on the issue regarding children:

SO I am not sure what has happened in the intervening years since this documentary was made but they seem to be failing to provide balance on this issue at the moment.

Thanks for your reply Penny.

KW was known to not be committed to transitioning. He lived as a man much of the time and used his 'trans' status to control and attack other residents in the sheltered housing scheme they housed him in. He stabbed an elderly man who 'misgendered' him and repeatedly used incorrect pronouns(when he was dress as a man) to call the police and harass other tenants. Why a man, who has raped women and was described by another trans woman who lived near him as 'fake trans' was not assessed before being placed in a women's prison is utterly inexplicable.

This was recorded BEFORE sentencing:
A pre-sentence report given to the judge stated White could abuse a child and "think nothing of it", the court heard.

And yet they placed him in a women's prison. Karen White is a psychopath and a very dangerous predator. They knew that, they knew who he was and yet they placed him in a women's prison. There is somthing very very rotten at the heart of that.

Yes I understand there was a mother and baby unit also at the prison where he was placed.

My view is we need to go back to biological sex in places where it can easily be monitored - so prisons, hospital wards, shelters, sports.

At the end of the day, making cosmetic changes to your appearance does not alter the underlying biology of a person.

Thank you upstart, I will discuss that with my friend as well.

I have watched the documentary clip Penny thank you for sharing.

It is very odd to see the child's replies. They don't actually make any statements that refer to being a girl - about girls bodies. They like dolls, fairies and pink. So what? At 8.16 the child's tone changes when she is asked if anyone minds - "No one minds" - the tone is totally different to all the previous chat and gives a clear message - no one minds and it's not up for debate. That is not how children usually speak and they have heard that expression "no one minds" used before or been coached. I have a huge amount of sympathy for anyone growing up feeling oppressed by gender stereotypes but all these children do not benefit from being told they are 'in the wrong body'.

Years ago I read a book called "the worst date ever" by Jane Bussmann - it shows the behaviour of international charities is so interlinked with the tragedies they work to relieve. Here, Mermaids and others are making their livings (and gaining fame and hero status) pushing this ideology, and the drug companies must be rubbing their hands together in glee at the thought of life long hormone dependant people.

A 5 year old cannot make the decision to change gender - it is absurd. As they say locally "when you see a vegan dog, you know he's not in charge". Why can't they just play with who they want and wear what they want? It could be over anxious parenting, it could even be a form of Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome in some cases but from what I read schools are now implementing big structural changes to children's routines - PE, changing etc. based on the say so of children or their parents - no medical note needed, so how do we safeguard these children.

Is it only a clip? Try to watch the whole programme if you can.

There's 2 girls interviewed - one was encouraged by her parents in her desire to transition. She's now ashamed of her body, has a deep voice, a beard she has to shave every day and realises now she just wanted to do things that weren't traditionally female.

There's another girl who every day for years had arguments with her parents saying she was a boy. They opposed it, sent her to therapy instead to encourage her to love her body and realise there is nothing she can't do as a girl. Eventually as puberty hit she came to terms with being female and is glad she didn't go down that route.

Yup. YABU and a bit blind to say no one wants this passed as law when loads and loads of people clearly do. Also, YABU to post a AIBU which you clearly don't believe just to start a debate which has happened here about a million times.

Fortunately for sanity I understand the Conservatives are now regretting this even being suggested and will not go ahead with the proposals.