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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to state that no one thinks Self ID for Trans gender people should be passed as law.

154 replies

Shiklah · 14/10/2018 21:32

Thank you for reading my thread.

I would appreciate respectful debate on this issue as I am utterly bewildered. Please do not attack me and call me a transphobic person. I am not. I work with vulnerable women and children, including victims of grooming gangs, in Calderdale. I live in a town very close to where Karen White lived and abused his victims which has made me research this topic.

I posted on MN yesterday asking for views on the media calling Karen White - a male rapist - she. I have researched and read continuously for the last 24 hours and am now utterly bewildered. It seems that the government, media and many trusted organisations are willing to pass over the rights of women and children to support the rights of men who may or may not be transgendered.

Transgendered people have dysphoria, this means that being a trans woman and being a rapist are exclusive - you cannot be one if you are the other. it makes no sense. It seems very clear that if self ID goes thru then any man which a personality disorder and fetish can ID as a woman and use this loop hole to gain access to hospitals, prisons, detention centres, children's homes, refuges and rape crisis centres. As women, we must protect those that are vulnerable, it cannot be right that to meet the needs of a maligned group (trans gender people) we sacrifice the rights of another?

We have a system that seems flawed - maybe it needs to change, maybe it needs review, I am not trans and would like to hear from those that are to advise on this, please help me understand........ but AIBU to state that self ID is unacceptable to women, children and truly transgendered people who will suffer if the likes of Karen White are considered to be 'women'?

Thanks for reading.

OP posts:
OrchidInTheSun · 15/10/2018 13:47

I do t think you linked to the right clip Penny. That's two boys transitioning who are 6 and 8, both being advised by Mermaids. Both sets the f parents talk about being child led

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 15/10/2018 13:49

No they don’t but no one of them wants to admit to that.

Penny1976 · 15/10/2018 13:53

Yes it's that one definitely. Everyone should watch it. It's so balanced, how the BBC should be.

OrchidInTheSun · 15/10/2018 13:58

Ah thank you. Will watch it later Smile

Original poster
Shiklah · 15/10/2018 14:07

Thank you for your replies, I will watch that clip.

@Alaaya
I keep being told that a 'loads and loads' of people want this but I cannot find them anywhere and I am searching - as you can see. Yes, it has been debated in the feminist pages many times and I cannot find any rational and logical arguments for self ID - only name calling and threats that people will die if this doesn't happen. I don't see evidence for this. Please explain your view and why you feel self ID is acceptable in law and how women and children can be safe guarded from predators. I posted in AIBU as I seek all opinions, not just that of gender critical feminists who have kindly taken time to explain their views with great patience, both here and in real life. I would very much value your viewpoint. Thank you

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 15/10/2018 14:36

Yes have a look at feminism chat. They're all over it there but you'll only get one point of view

I certainly agree with the first part of the above post

There are posters on the FWR boards with different views but they are virtually all agreed that self ID could have unintended and unwanted consequences

Unfortunately acknowledging this does not fit in with agenda of some posters

Penny1976 · 15/10/2018 14:53

I was too scared to go on FWR chat for years as I'm just really ordinary with no feminist knowledge. I thought they would all be really scary sharp intelligent feminists who would suss me out for the make up wearing leg shaving lightweight I am.

However, I am so glad I ventured over there.

It's just full of normal mums and women in general. The only qualifications you need to have is to be female. The joy of a female only space cannot be overstated (even if it does get invaded occasionally by mens rights activists)

RiverTam · 15/10/2018 14:58

Not all transwomen have disphoria, not by a country mile.

The only people who want this passed are those who want unfettered access to women and girls, particularly vulnerable women and girls, or those in a vulnerable state, such as undressed.

You seem to understand the issues pretty well. Have you completed the government consultation?

GivenuponHumanity · 15/10/2018 15:01

I can understand your confusion OP. What troubles me is that our MP's are frightened to discuss the issue: blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/even-our-mps-are-afraid-of-the-transgender-mob/

gendercritter · 15/10/2018 15:11

YANBU and it's baffling why anyone is in favour of self-id. You can't change sex

Tooshytoshine · 15/10/2018 15:14

My guess is that the proposals won't go through. The need for self ID only really penalises those trans people who don't pass and can't use female or male spaces without drawing attention. They already use those single sex spaces.

I can see the benefit of self id for many trans people, as often gaining the GRC is expensive, drawn out and intrusive. It is a barrier to many in accessing services and has a detrimental impact on MH. I think the sex based rights activists often lack this empathy for a struggling group.

However, I am in the equal but different camp - I respect your identity as a trans woman but you are not a biological woman no matter how much you want to be. We should be supporting a trans right to a third space and encouraging understanding of non binary genders. I was completely fucked off by Joe Anderson Mayor of Liverpool deciding he could define a woman.

RiverTam · 15/10/2018 15:20

surely being sold the lie that it's possible to change sex in the first place is more detrimental to MH than the process of getting a GRC?

Tooshytoshine · 15/10/2018 15:33

RiverTam I don't think you can change your sex. I think it is okay to be trans as an identity in its own right.

RiverTam · 15/10/2018 15:40

why? If you know the you can't change sex then what's the trans all about? It's just part of peddling the lie.

TerfedOff · 15/10/2018 16:18

I remember watching that BBC documentary if I remember rightly it was in fact banned in Canada for some reason. I think they have gone further down the Rabbit Hole of not being able to challenge the ideology than we have and I'm really hopeful that the UK is very sensible and will push back against all this.

Genevieva · 15/10/2018 16:33

You wrote: "Transgendered people have dysphoria, this means that being a trans woman and being a rapist are exclusive - you cannot be one if you are the other. it makes no sense."

Yet the crime profile of trans people matches their biological sex and not their chosen gender. There is no evidence to date that a trans identity corresponds with measurable differences. There is no getting away from the fact that trans women are not women - not physically, not hormonally (even with artificial intervention), and not in terms of behaviour. Recognising empirical facts doesn't mean that we are rejecting transgender people. It is possible to acknowledge their existence and work to include them in society without being cornered into allowing blatant factual inaccuracies to be normalised.

Original poster
Shiklah · 15/10/2018 16:59

Yes I have completed the consultation, emailed my MP and drafted an email to Penny Mourdant.

OP posts:
kesstrel · 15/10/2018 17:18

RiverTam I'd say the answer to your question is that people are psychologically complex, and individuals vary greatly psychologically in all sorts of ways. Some have mental health conditions of various sorts, which can be difficult for those not experiencing them to understand. We know there are transwomen who accept that they are male, but who can find respite from psychological suffering by presenting as female. I don't think that it's about peddling a lie at all.

Original poster
Shiklah · 15/10/2018 17:29

Thank you for replying. Yes, I think I was misguided to use the expression 'trans' when what I was referring to was specifically transexuals, which I thought was the basis for a trans identity and included hormone treatment and surgery. I appreciate that this is not the case and am starting to understand the full picture.

Yes it seems that men and trans women have the same offending rate. Women and trans men have the same offending rate.

I also note that trans people are at increased risk of suicide both before and after transitioning.

The information is hard to find, and I am grateful to those who have the time and patience to do this.

OP posts:
Tooshytoshine · 15/10/2018 17:35

I agree Kesstrel (sorry I was playing with my ds not avoiding).

I think that being trans (IE: not fitting the normative constraints of male and female) is a valid identity in its own right. It shouldn't have to be decided as male or female. However society is not structured that way - there are very few bespoke trans services for things such a DV, barriers to accessing healthcare, stigma to being a non-passing trans person and a lot of prejudice. Trans people are just people who don't fit into a gender binary in a very binary world.

Aspects of self id would also help those working with Trans young people and the trans YP as it moves away from a medicalised model of having surgery to be either trans male or trans female. Social transition is much easier to row back from than puberty blockers and proposed surgeries should they reconsider their identity.

That said, I don't think self id should go through but just wanted to show other perspectives.

wrenika · 15/10/2018 17:36

I am in favour of making it easier to access the facilities that are appropriate to your identity. The reason I am strongly in favour of these rights is because I watched my friend go through hell many years ago...she didn't use any bathroom at school and would hold on till she went home. She tried to kill herself. She struggled far more than anyone else I've ever met and I want to see things made easier for people in her position now.

I don't think that what is in someone's pants defines anything. Would you know if a women in the cubicle next to you actually had a penis? You very likely wouldn't and would come to absolutely no harm. I don't think we should trample all over the rights and progress for transgender individuals just out of fear for a tiny percentage of people who may abuse it.

I know this is the opposite opinion to most of mumsnet but I have seen first hand the suffering of someone who was struggling with their identity. I mean, I don't waste time worrying whether a lesbian is perving on me, so equally, I wouldn't worry that a trans woman was perving on me.

TerfedOff · 15/10/2018 17:38

The trouble is that 98% of sexual crime is committed by male bodied people whether they are trans or not. So the reason we have sex segregated facilities is to protect the more vulnerable members of society who don't commit those crimes. Ie women and girls,. or females.

If a transgender person doesn't want to use the facilities commensurate to their biological sex then perhaps if it's in a school situation for example a third option can be made available but they should not be given access to the facilities of the opposite sex.

Melamin · 15/10/2018 17:46

I will be listening to Womans Hour tomorrow.

However, so far, the BBC 'debate' has been restricted to why can't we be nicer to transgender people.

They hardly seem to mention, never mind scratch the surface, of changes in legislation that are being put forward (and have been put forward in the past, but timed out because of the general election) and the rubbish report by the Womens and Equalities Committee - you would think it would be important to Womans Hour listeners?

Unless they listen to Stonewall who say that none of this will affect women at all (with no evidence).

Tooshytoshine · 15/10/2018 18:09

Wrenika - hope your friend is in a better place now and able to access support services that may help them. Nobody should have to feel that way about who they are.

If in doubt, access the Proud Trust's website or email them and they can point you in the right direction for your region.

The fact is that trans people do use gendered facilities already. I think trans people should have their identity recognised for what it is another iteration of gender identity - equal but different to make or female.