AIBU to state that no one thinks Self ID for Trans gender people should be passed as law.

[Shiklah]

Thank you for reading my thread.

I would appreciate respectful debate on this issue as I am utterly bewildered. Please do not attack me and call me a transphobic person. I am not. I work with vulnerable women and children, including victims of grooming gangs, in Calderdale. I live in a town very close to where Karen White lived and abused his victims which has made me research this topic.

I posted on MN yesterday asking for views on the media calling Karen White - a male rapist - she. I have researched and read continuously for the last 24 hours and am now utterly bewildered. It seems that the government, media and many trusted organisations are willing to pass over the rights of women and children to support the rights of men who may or may not be transgendered.

Transgendered people have dysphoria, this means that being a trans woman and being a rapist are exclusive - you cannot be one if you are the other. it makes no sense. It seems very clear that if self ID goes thru then any man which a personality disorder and fetish can ID as a woman and use this loop hole to gain access to hospitals, prisons, detention centres, children's homes, refuges and rape crisis centres. As women, we must protect those that are vulnerable, it cannot be right that to meet the needs of a maligned group (trans gender people) we sacrifice the rights of another?

We have a system that seems flawed - maybe it needs to change, maybe it needs review, I am not trans and would like to hear from those that are to advise on this, please help me understand........ but AIBU to state that self ID is unacceptable to women, children and truly transgendered people who will suffer if the likes of Karen White are considered to be 'women'?

Thanks for reading.

I don't think 'transgender' exists when going off stonewall definitions, which includes near every person alive today, as I said. 'Transgender' is all about the stereotypes, and near noone follows all masculine or feminine stereotypes.

I wish 'gender dysphoria' was called what it is..sex dysphoria. People dysphoric over their sexed bodies and thus, wish to change them. This conflating of gender and sex does noone any good tbh.

I think the switch to 'transgender' (and the ridiculous trans umbrella) is part of why we are in this stupid situation today, with endless males who love their penises bullying lesbians into shagging the,m and demanding access to womens changing rooms because they like to put on lacy underwear, or prefer wearing stereotypically feminine clothes When people hear trans, they think transsexual (and I think this is why some see 'bigotry' as they don't understand this is about males, any male who says the magiv words 'I am a woman' and thus apparently reduces his risk to women!). But not many of these new 'trans' people even have dysphoria, nevermind have had any treatment for it.

That’s because too many men do not wish to leave women in peace, you are living in la-la-land if you think they are.

As for not belieb8ng trans is a thing, it’s a view I’ve come to very gradually. The thing that tipped me over was (I’m probably not going to explain this very well) the realisation that transsexuals (ie those who’ve had ‘bottom surgery’) still require deceit - people who say ‘well, transwomen have been peeing next to you for years and you’ve never realised’ - so you have transwomen who don’t pass (many if not most dont) and those who do require deceit - they pass because they can deceive people into not believing what’s in front of them.

And it was like a lightbulb moment. The whole thing is an absolute edifice of lies and deceit. And what kind of life is that? To know that you can only live happily ‘as a woman’ if you can deceive women. That’s terrible. That’s no future for anyone. That shouldn’t be encouraged or endorsed.

And so I believe that the tiny number of people with body dysmorphia should have that treated as the mental health condition it is, to help them come to grips with the heathy body (hopefully) that they have been given, instead of hormones and surgery and validation (ie others supporting the delusion). And the rest, the fetishists, the narcissists - well, they can identify how the fuck they like, but they ain’t ever gonna be a woman, so stop telling me they are.

That’s a big ole ramble but hopefully you can take something from that.

chicken you do seem to be being a little obtuse - plus if I were you I'd steer well clear of stating that being gay is 'not natural'

I think you're missing what chicken meant there - I read it as she was saying that people used to see being gay as not a natural state (which thankfully isn't the case now and it's rightfully accepted)
Same as with trans, really. Some saying it's not a thing or not a natural state - not a giant step to what people used to say about gay people.

I do not mean to be insensitive to gay people at all.
if i had concerns of being trans i definitely would feel by people trying to argue that it didnt exsit it was way more insensitive , how is that ok i mean where does that leave trans people?

Thats exactly what i mean thank you

Thank you for clarifying.
But trans is not a sexual orientation. I really don't think it is comparable to homosexuality.
Being trans in its current umbrella definition is now a non-specific feeling or identity that has nothing to do with biology or sexual preference. It is not 'real' in that sense. That doesn't deny a person's feelings. Hey may feel however they wish, but they are not actually definably the thing they feel.

I am feeling less and less tolerant of its vague and arrogant superiority over the rights of women, who are defined as adult human females and are being told to budge up and make room for anyone who wants to take their place.

So trans women feel threatened in male spaces. Their answer is to make women feel threatened in female spaces.
Fuck. That.

@RiverTam that's exactly the journey I have been on over the last couple of years and I have come to exactly the same conclusion.

It takes a while to get there, but once you do there's no going back.

chicken any thoughts on what I wrote? I was you I was aiming it at, really - trying to explain my position.

Thanks Terfed.

I completely agree OP.

Can you imagine leaving your abusive male partner and getting a place at a refuge, only to find that the refuge is full of "stunning and brave" biological men wearing dresses?

If I request a female doctor or HCP then I want to be confident that they are actually a woman.

I'm currently reading Vox, set in a time when women can only say 100 words a day and aren't allowed to read. I don't think this is too far a stretch from reality. Before we know it there will be "men" and "other-men".

I have read and i may also not explain myself well as u have seen with last post. Its only decit because its not been accepted, anything that is hide from society would be a decit. Like being gay when it was illegal. What i think is it shouldnt be. And im sure if it was accepted then they wouldnt feel like they need to.
I dont believe its my place to decide if someone who believes they are in wrong body shouldnt live as the right body to them. I dont believe its our job to convince them as long as they are not hurting anyone it is not my business how they live their life. 1

Chicken while I see your point, I think youre missing the fact thatself ID is all based on deceit.

A male who marches into the womens loos, to uronaye using his penis while standing up, screaming its his right "as a woman" is attempting to decieve us all.

Transsexuals and self ID are a world apart.

Well no, it would continue to be a deceit, because it is not a fact.

A GRC is in fact a legal conceit. That is literally what it is defined as.

Social acceptance of a lie is still a lie. It just becomes a 'white lie' that we're all presumed to be ok with.

I dont believe self ID is good for everyone if it can be used to hurt people. Im not talking about self ID.

Thank you all so much, lots to think about.

Going back to Stonewall's definition, it really is bizarre and fascinating. If DH dresses up as a woman for one night, is he a woman at that point? Utterly weird. Cross dressers are not women, Eddie Izzard can't spend years earning millions as a male comedian, film star and ultra athlete, wearing 'his skirt' and calling himself an 'action transvestite' then suddenly claim to be a trans woman! It's absurd!

I think this is very important:

The trouble is that 98% of sexual crime is committed by male bodied people whether they are trans or not. So the reason we have sex segregated facilities is to protect the more vulnerable members of society who don't commit those crimes. Ie women and girls, or females.

As a woman I feel I must stand up for the vulnerable women, those that don't have a voice. Those teenagers, women on psych wards and in prison. Predators cannot be allowed any loopholes and meeting the needs of one repressed segment of society should not infringe on another's.

Thank you River, that is food for thought.

That is what this whole thread is about though...?

Sorry OP, that was to chicken

It seems that what we should aim to move towards is an improved certification process involving women making decisions about who is and isn't allowed access to womens spaces such as changing rooms.

At the moment, from what I understand the board is male dominated. Also women seem happy to accept transmen in most cases. It is men who reject trans women and in many cases also trans men. I spoke to several young men who openly, to my undisguised horror, said things like "women are better at dealing with that sort of thing" or "I don't like the idea of it, women are better at that stuff". It's very strange, all trans people are 'not men' before they are anything else. Toilets are being changed to men and gender-neutral, how is that fair?

Trans people seem to be most at risk from male violence and yet they attack feminists for stating the same fear! How can they be so self obsessed!

I am off to finish my email to Penny Mourdant. Thanks so much for all the posts, I really appreciate it.

I took offence to someone explaining trans being non existent and explained my reasoning . The concerns of self ID can be discussed separately away from the whole existence of being trans. Isnt it about a sub group that use the trans label to harm others?

Im sorry if it seems i have highjacked the board it was not my intention

chicken unfortunately we do have to discuss these issues as part and parcel of the same topic - the offending rates for males and females stay the same regardless of their gender identity. Someone upthread explained it well, but it boils down to the fact that women are at just as much risk from a trans woman as they are from a gender conforming man. So no, they are not separate issues. They are very much the same, sad as that is for those few transsexual individuals who are just trying to live a quiet life.

The problem is for people who transition that it does all seem to be about living a lie. It's about being able to pass the best. There have been several recent court cases of men who have been convicted of sexual offences with women because in fact they were female who didn't have male genitalia and they were insisting on having sex in the dark and they were then using something that hurt the women. So I cannot see in any way how those men can successfully have any kind of an adult life.

Well that's flipping horrific.

I do understand what ur saying however i would argue its much more than a few! And that is a big however. To me , It makes it sound like poor women are being attacked by men all the time. Its not the majority of the male population that are a danger to women its a minority. When i say men i mean all men

Proportionally its a few. Something like 0.07% I believe.
And yes, women are attacked by men all the time. Not all men of course. But enough men to make me cautious to a degree around almost all men.