to stop shopping at M and S for selling hijabs for young girls

[worstmotherintheworld]

So M and S have started to sell hijabs as part of their school uniform range...aimed at primary school children. One reviewer helpfully suggests getting the small one for a 4 year old.

I have been shopping at Marks all my adult life and have remained a faithful customer despite some dodgy clothes of late and the uninspirational Sparks card, but I think this is going to be the last straw for me.

Banning the headscarf? Because that will just result in little girls being taken out of school

Okay so please would a Muslim woman explain to me why she would take a 5yo out of school if she couldn't wear a headscarf. Fair enough teens I get that, but a 5yo? It's interesting because further up everyone was insistent it was just little girls wanting to look like mummy.

Okay so please would a Muslim woman explain to me why she would take a 5yo out of school if she couldn't wear a headscarf. Fair enough teens I get that, but a 5yo?

I don't understand removing a teen from school either. They are as entitled to an education as the 5 year old.

Puberty likely has started by 16 at the very very latest so the majority of teens withdrawn would be he underage and shouldn't be sexualized either . Seems strange to understand one but not the other tbh

Teens have been through puberty which is apparently important. If not I stand corrected.

Get a life. And stop being so prejudiced

You can disagree with the idea of girls and women having to cover themselves up so men aren't "tempted" by the sight of hair or flesh without being prejudiced you know.

I really have no understanding if the whole thing at all. There are coherent articulate and intelligent answers on both sides and when Muslim women have appeared on threads they have sounded anything but oppressed .

All I know is what I said before. That's girls have far to many things preventing them from accessing education. I don't think we should add any nore difficulties too that. If that take a head scarfs so be it.

They should be in school

When they start trying to insist we all wear a hijab is the time to get incensed

That time for some of us passed a few years ago
I have been told as a woman I should cover up and cover my hair by a male member of the public. I was working at the time
DD has walked out of a job when they insisted she wear a t.towel on her head because she hadn't brought her burqua.

So forgive myself and DD if we are not quite as accepting being told what we should or shouldn't wear and see young children in distress wearing inappropriate clothing in 50degree heat is just cruelty.

Many people have mentioned that 25/50 years ago we rarely saw small girls in hajib - very true....but it was also rare to see a 5 year old in school uniform few primary schools and many senior schools did not have them back then.

It's ironic to me that people are criticising the selling of a school uniform hajib as being supporting an enforced cultural norm - well so is school uniform. Most of the world does not have school uniform I do not see how it is different - telling children they must conform to cultural expectations in clothing is EXACTLY what school uniform is all about.

We have seen an explosion in enforced cultural norms in clothing in many parts of the world - but espicially in countries or cultures that are becoming more extreme. Uk and some muslim communities both fit that bill so no wonder some muslims in the UK are findng the influence to conform overwhelming.

We could decide in the UK to work towards abolishing these ridiculous constraints - get rid of school uniform and most other uniforms , promote unisex clothing styles including skirts for boys, move the focus to choosing clothing that is most suitable for what you are doing rather than obeying some rule.

In a generation the hajib would naturally just disappear.

Or we could ignore the vast changes in societal controls and blame the individuals - a thought pattern that is another enforced cultural norm that has emerged in the UK over the last 25/50 years.

In relation to speaking to Muslim women I have spoken to lots. Some who wear the hijab some who don't. Usually all professional women and women who are empowered by their intellect and personal beliefs. None of their dd's wear the hijab except for special occasions/festivals.

When my dc went to a London cofe school there was a strong Muslim cohort. The mothers were nit empowered and were not well educated. They did not mix or integrate and neither did their dc. The Imam had a strong influence and sent his own children to the cofe school. There was refusal to join in with end if term services and celebrations despite sending children to a cofe school. The hijab started to be worn in y6 then y5 then y4. Not one non Muslim child was ever forbidden to visit the mosque, synagogue, buddhist temple. Need I say more.

I think that scenario is a cause for concern.

But OP if these little girls don't cover themselves they might provoke a male teacher to have unclean thoughts about them which would stop the male teacher from being able to teach as being a sexual distraction so better for these little girls to not be so provocative, that way they might be allowed an education!

when Muslim women have appeared on threads they have sounded anything but oppressed

I think the point is that Muslim women are individuals with individual circumstances. Some niqab-wearers are no more oppressed than the rest of us women and I accept that but it is naive to assume that isn't the case for all. Many teenage girls are taken to school and back on special buses for example to prevent them getting into any trouble. But it's a hard one because women must be allowed to wear what they want. That for me is a basic right.

“If my ds walked into M&S wearing one of their hoodies he would be asked to remove it. “

Oliversmummsarmy can you refer me to a ban on hoodies in M&S? There was a big public backlash against the banning of teens in hoodies in shopping centres when it was tried a few years ago. A public backlash precisely because in this country we value individual rights and non prejudice.

Personally I am strongly against coercing children and young women into wearing hijab (not against free choice by older girls to wear it£, and I am also dismayed by young children in bikinis, high heels, make up. But I don’t want to see it banned by law and perpetrators criminalised.

Can any of you answer the repeated question on this thread: why did we rarely see headcarves on young girls 25 years ago and NEVER on little kids? Is it because this kind of religious fundamentalism, this set of ideas, is a recent thing and can we engage with that without the predictable shouts of racist?

Well said.
M&S should not be selling the hijab to young children. Entirely inappropriate.

but it was also rare to see a 5 year old in school uniform few primary schools and many senior schools did not have them back then

That is so incorrect it's laughable. Every primary school and secondary school I know had school uniform 40 plus years ago.

I follow Yasmine Mohammed on Twitter.

Very informative article by her regarding the hijab.

I think one of her tweets telling the retailer to ‘fuck you’ will give you an idea of her views.

I haven’t read through the whole thread so she may or may not have already been mentioned. It’s experiences such as hers which we should listen to. When I read her views which yes, are only hers but still, it gave me more information about what this piece of ‘clothing’means to her and others like her.

@Menarefrommarsitwouldseem "It isn't right at all and doesn't belong in 2018 and the UK should be trying to stop these kind of things. Not encouraging them." YES to this.
And to people saying that girls from the age of 4 won't get to access an education if hijab isn't allowed at school - people who have fundamentalist beliefs in almost any religion aren't sending their children to school anyways. They tend to be home educators, unless they've set up their own private school or free school where they make the rules. And no I don't see this as a good thing. Even then, I haven't seen a girl under the age of 12 in hijab in the UK except in a news article against little girls wearing hijab. But the fundamentalists don't tend to mix outside of their own Home Ed groups so who would know.

Many children's shops have lots of clothes that I don't consider appropriate for my daughter, or sexualise children - someone upthread mentioned skimpy bikinis for young children, also crop tops, inappropriate slogans that slowly disempower young girls, makeup and nail varnish aimed at children, and clothes and shoes that make it physically impossible for girls to keep up with boys at play.

Yes, a hijab on a 4 year old is problematic, but it fades into insignificance compared to all the other shit we have to wade through to dress our daughters.

astoundedgoat where the hell are you shopping?

From Yasmine Mohammed’s twitter account

I am amazed this provocative and prejudiced thread is being hosted by Mumsnet. Quite disgusting
So you think mumsnet should only allow threads where it might be considered that Christians are being offended? Some of those threads have been vile, is that not disgusting too. Or should Islam be above criticism. This is not even on the same scale as those threads. Nobody on here is attacking Islam the religion, no need to look for any perceived offence.

Oliversmum

I have been told as a woman I should cover up and cover my hair by a male member of the public. I was working at the time*
DD has walked out of a job when they insisted she wear a t.towel on her head because she hadn't brought her burqa

Oh what a torrrid life you lead, Oliversmum 😂

Your 5yo banned from M&S for wearing a hoodie, your daughter forced to to wear a towel on her head by big, bad Muslims, you told to cover up by Muslims, you have to watch poor oppressed Muslim girls clutching their necks in horror due to their hijab.

Why does it all happen to you I wonder?

Dawnmist - glad you admit this thread is vile, made so by you and your ilk.

I have relatives in a country where women have to cover.

It breaks my heart to see photos of the kids - and the little girls covered up - these are little kids, nowhere puberty and not in a family that condones girls married off in their teens or to someone they arrange.

It's for adults not children.

To see this in good old, English as anything m&s?

Yes, a hijab on a 4 year old is problematic, but it fades into insignificance compared to all the other shit we have to wade through to dress our daughters

This is how I feel.

I hate uniform for this reason. I hate how pretty much every thing on the scholl system is set up to tell you that unless you are a white male you don't belong there.

Far to much focus on the clothes the girls have to wear in school. There is something wrong with everything that all comes down to daring to have a female body.

We should be focussed on bow we are raising boys in this society. We should he raising our girls know to say fuck you to everything .

But here we are again. Talking about banning nore girls and women's clothes . We should be sorting out why they are wearing them first.

But she can't and shouldn't pretend to speak for all Muslim women, RocksOff

Havaina, of course. Which is why I pointed out in my first post that I realise these are her views and her experiences.

Hard not to listen to her though, sorry.