In my understanding of the trans issue.

[Randomusername01]

I'm trying to work out if I'm being bigoted or not. I agree with some of the trans posts I see here but others, whilst maybe not being anti trans by mn standards definitely come across as mean and on the verge of being anti trans imo. Anyway I digress. Am I right in thinking that gender is just a feeling, constructed partly by society and partly by individual innateness. So I guess I do agree that people can self I'd their gender along whatever myriad there is. But this is separate from anatomical sex, which bar a minority of cases either fall under male with penis and female with a vagina. So you could perhaps identify with being female but anatomically you would be male? So is the problem lies in how society segregates things such as prisons, sports, changing rooms etc. By gender or otherwise?

Yes but there is provision and policy in place to ensure that any transwomen and natal women that do pose significant risk are managed. So any scaremongering about violent criminals being placed with women prisoners is just that. Scaremongering. What is lacking in incidents where transwomen do offend in prison is down to enforcement of said policy.
So natal women are not put at risk as part of a properly managed system where trans offenders are placed on the basis of stated gender.

As for your second point, I'm really struggling to understand where you're coming from there. Disabled spaces and braille are based on a physical need, not on societys expectations, like sex based spaces are. They have absolutely nothing to do with sex based spaces. I can't see the parellel, sorry if I'm being thick.

Mldgebabe-
No law or policy is going to dictate that you MUST be naked with anybody. What about a system of private changing spaces, along with communal areas should you choose to use them?

yes, under reporting rates are known to be variable, making reported crime numbers pretty . nO one believes a rise but is happy to see a decline!

so the methods use data to collect data on abuse are different to most crimes. In particular the uk relies on surveys. If I remember correctly , metoo hadn’t taken off when the last lot of data was gathered, so surveys not affected by that.

Canada police produce some graphs with data over 10 years. Uk is much harder to see the trends ( and tend to actulally be England and Wales data only)

That’s exactly what I mean. That is sad, and I’m sorry to hear she has hangups. Like I said earlier, I do believe that being brought up in a family where nudity was no big deal meant I never suffered from this, I don’t want to sound like I’m bragging but in my personal experience, among my friends that were also brought up in a household open about bodies, they’re the ones comfortable with their bodies, while the ones where it was taboo are not. My standpoint is that if female bodies were a normal, regular sight for boys from a young age e.g. in the changing rooms at the pool, getting changed for PE, I think it would take away a lot of the mystery and temptation and therefore ogling. And likewise if male bodies were a normal sight in those places it would remove the fear of what a penis might be capable of

We’ll designed Private spaces would be fine, and my preferred solution also, but over the years companies have moved to open plan as cheaper way to minimise queues. My gym for example only has 4 semi private spaces inside the female area for women who like more privacy ( typically used by the very old or very young) plus 2 private disabled and 2 family sized self contained unisex units. The main area can hold over 50 women .

And then, solve the smear test ...if I only want a woman please. Very please. ( as an aside, that test was invented by a Greek man. )

Sorry. Just to clarify:

The test is that if a four year old is "consistent, persistent and insistent" (for an undefined period) they are the "wrong" gender (also undefined), bang they are? So they must "transition"? We must accept, without question a four year old knows what he/she is talking about and lead him/her on a path to hormone therapy and genital mutilation?!

My four year old has been "consistent, persistent and insistent" for a good nine months that he is Spider-Man. Is he...trans species?

My niece was "consistent, persistent and insistent" for about 18 months that she was "a boy and a girl". What does this mean? She identifies as intersex?

And likewise if male bodies were a normal sight in those places it would remove the fear of what a penis might be capable of

Err, given the stats, that's a perfectly rational fear! You do know how many rapes are reported and actually get to trial, don't you? And how many never get reported?

And prisoners aren't managed! That's why Karen White was able to do what they're did. Don't do the "lessons will be learned" because you know that's not true whenever that phrase is uttered.

Seriously, let's all expand what it means to be men and women within the sex classes and allow freedom within those spheres , whilst maintaining sex segregated spaces. What harm from that goal?

And although the law doesn’t state I have to be naked in front of people, the law is actually currently written so that, if I don’t want to be naked I can still fully participate in society. I am not excluded from gym by the chang8ng facilities . Ie it ensure that I have a real choice.

My standpoint is that if female bodies were a normal, regular sight for boys from a young age e.g. in the changing rooms at the pool, getting changed for PE, I think it would take away a lot of the mystery and temptation and therefore ogling.

And what about how the girls feel about this, or doesn't that matter?

And likewise if male bodies were a normal sight in those places it would remove the fear of what a penis might be capable of

What a strange thing to say. Why would we want to ignore what penis bearers are capable of? The only thing that would remove the fear would be if 100% of penis bearers stopped using them to rape women and girls.

Blair, my point is I don’t think it’s healthy that so many girls are that ashamed or afraid of their bodies that they can’t countenance a stranger seeing it in a perfectly innocent situation. That needs to change. I don’t think accepting that that’s just how some people feel or that’s how it is means it’s a desirable status quo.

And yes, I’m perfectly aware of what the legal system is like for rape thanks, been through it myself. I’m well aware of the statistics. Do I think it’s healthy to go through life fearing a body part because it happens to be a sex organ? No, absolutely not. Sex offenders, as prevalent and dangerous as they are, are a separate issue to the general shame, sexualisation and fear around bodies and nudity our society promotes

I think it’s hard for men and for women who have lived without assault, to fully understand the impact rape can have on a woman

To put some context around it, I read recently , possibly rape crisis , that rate s of ptsd are higher in rape victims than in soldiers. It’s pretty nasty stuff.

Johnny My children have been raised in an open and relaxed household. Nudity was very normal for all of us when our children were little. Now that they are older, they seek privacy when they are undressing so we obviously respect that. I don’t see it as a sign that anything has gone wrong in how we’ve raised them. They are asserting boundaries and we are respecting them.

And like I said, my DD’s discomfort has arisen not from puberty itself, or her body; but from the sexualisation of her body by SOME males, before such time as she is emotionally or psychologically ready to engage with ideas about being sexy.

Johnnyfinland I'm sorry that he did what he did to you. And I get that your position may well stem from that - I can really see where you come from re a position of owning your own body and neutralising that of others.

However, safeguarding... Where does that fit, given the very real statistics?

I wasn’t suggesting your household or upbringing had contributed to that, sorry, I can see how it came across that way though.

I still stand by my point that by not attaching sexual connotations to a human body and treating it as a normal everyday thing would go a long way towards reducing that sexualisation she’s experienced. I don’t want to remove anyone’s right to privacy either, hence why I keep saying facilities should have private cubicles etc for those who prefer that. And no, there’s nothing wrong with wanting privacy in your own home out of preference but when that extends to fear or shame around the idea of a communal changing room I think that’s indicative of society’s general attitude to bodies

Johnnyfinland, I must say, I'd far rather discuss this stuff with you rather than those who get off on adult baby stuff or wanking in public who the government are listening to!

Thanks AyeRobot. I don’t think my position has stemmed from that - I felt the same before it happened, and being assaulted has done nothing to change my view.

I do get concerns about safeguarding. Obviously current procedures like DBS checks etc should continue although some people do slip though the net. Better education from a younger age about consent. I think there should be an exception when it comes to sex offenders in prisons as well as I said, clearly the current risk assessment is not adequate if karen White ended up in a women’s jail.

Specifically with regards to self-ID, it almost seems like people forget that sex offences will still be a crime. If a man walks into a woman’s toilet pretending to be a woman with the express intention of filming/assaulting whatever it might be, that won’t cease to be a crime. But countries that have self ID already haven’t actually seen a rise in crimes of this nature, which unfortunately happen already without self ID.

Secondly, trans women with penises are most likely already using women’s loos. I think the vast majority just want to pee in peace.

Its also necessary to interrogate the evidence - take the Times stats on sexual assaults in unisex areas, for example. Obviously we can see they happened, but there were some notable omissions, like how many local authorities they actually asked, what the nature of the incidents were, etc. For all we know they could have been male-on-male or vice versa. Private gyms and leisure centres were excluded from the data because they’re not subject to FOI. Not that that excuses the assaults or makes them a non-issue of course, but it doesn’t prove trans people are an issue as some would like to believe

And I agree with you there, Aye, those particular people are not appropriate spokespeople, they’re damaging to the cause if anything

My standpoint is that if female bodies were a normal, regular sight for boys from a young age e.g. in the changing rooms at the pool, getting changed for PE, I think it would take away a lot of the mystery and temptation and therefore ogling. And likewise if male bodies were a normal sight in those places it would remove the fear of what a penis might be capable of

That’s a hopelessly naive standpoint. As other posters have pointed out, there are extremely good reasons for women to fear exposed penises anywhere they have not been invited.

Secondly, you’re trying to desexualise something that can’t be desexualised no matter how much lentil weaving yogurt botherers lecture us about it. Our bodies are created for procreation and to sexually attract mates. A 16 year old girl can regard her body as innocent and non-sexual, but that’s not going to change the fact that many boys and men will find it sexually attractive.

You can demystify it until the cows come home, it’s still not going to change the fact that the human race is dependent on sexual attraction and it can’t be erased.

We also know that if someone sexually attacks a woman, in the overwhelming majority of cases that person will have a penis.

We haven’t worked out how to stop men raping women yet. But the second best alternative until we find that is making sure women have safe spaces and areas where they are safe from encountering penises. But apparently we have to give that up and be good little victims of whatever is chucked at us.

I don't for a second forget that anything would be a crime. But, in order to be reported*, a crime has to happen. I'm just not prepared to widen the risk of that happening, which would be the case under self id. I'm really interested to understand those, like you, who are happy for that to happen for the sake of validation. Why is validation of gender identity more important than safeguarding?

*and we all know the barriers to that don't we?

I don't understand why, if transwomen believe themselves to be women, they don't go the whole hog and have the operation. Surely their male genitalia would not make 'sense' to them?

Because modern trans ideology says your gender identity has nothing to do with your genitals.

Plus there's a large number of male "lesbians" who are quite happy with their penises and have no intention of getting rid of them. They do demand lesbians treat their penises as if they are female sex organs though, and call them bigots and vagina fetishists if they won't date "lesbians" with penises.

Gingerrogered i fundamentally disagree that the human body is inherently sexual in every situation. It’s sexual when you want it to be. It isn’t when it’s going to the toilet or changing clothes. Of course sexual attraction isn’t going to go away or people stop finding other people attractive, but that isnt the problem is it - it’s sexual assumptions made about bodies in non-sexual situations and a severe lack of education and understanding around consent. And yes, it is mainly men who need to be re-educated on this, but I stand by that normalisation of the human body is a good first step.

AyeRobot, it’s not even about validating trans people’s gender to me. I mean, I don’t care if a trans woman with a penis happens to be in the cubicle next to me, but like I said before it’s more that I think sex segregation perpetuates the unhealthy sexualisation of bodies. I’m also willing to take at face value the stats from countries who have self ID which don’t show an increase in such crimes or an epidemic of sex offending men pretending to be women

Been in a number of changing rooms in more than one Scandinavian country. Women very much at home with their bodies. This is a good thing.

None were mixed sex. Only ever seen women and children in there. I am aware some families use facilities such as hot tubs together, but they are families.

A teacher was sent to prison for spying on the girls in the changing room in my local school. The idea increasing body comfort creates some kind of haven that means these things don’t happen is ludicrous.

Personally, I could probably cope with a transwoman in my changing room. Depending on how it went, I might even return. But there are women who would not and why should they be excluded from a space where they previously felt safe?

And JohnnyFinland, you might not think the human body is sexual when it’s going to the toilet, but so many men seem to think women use public toilets to w*nk, that I presume they themselves do so regularly enough to see it as normal.

They seem unable to imagine any other scenario. The number of US men who seem to feel women shouldn’t breastfeed in public, as breasts are sexual is also quite eye opening. We have a long way to go before we arrive in utopia.

There won't be stats. That's the point! They aren't recorded as anything other than women - see the recent UK rape stats. And, like I say, we all know the barriers to reporting.

I know you are posting from a good place, Johnnyfinland. I just think you are a bit on the naive side. And, a bit removed from all of this. Because the people who I referenced earlier absolutely have the ear of government. So, with the consultation over self id ongoing, it's time to pick a side or stay on the fence with no voice. Choose, but bear in mind that safeguarding is hanging in the balance. Karen White happened because people were pressurised to implement a law that doesn't exist.

Johnnyfinland how about stats from the UK then?

Unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities, research by The Sunday Times shows. Almost 90% of reported sexual assaults, harassment and voyeurism in swimming pool and sports-centre changing rooms happen in unisex facilities, which make up less than half the total.

Gender-neutral changing is growing as councils seek to cut staff costs and cater to transgender people. But one MP said it risked becoming a “magnet” for sex offenders and increased the danger to women and girls.

[...]

The data emerged four days after Darren Johnson, a serial voyeur, was sentenced to 16 months’ imprisonment after stalking schoolgirls in the mixed changing area of Putney leisure centre in southwest London. Johnson was caught after two 14-year-olds spotted his smartphone poking through a gap from the adjoining cubicle. When police raided his house, they found 150 files of photos taken at the centre. A second voyeur, Anthony Gomes, was caught in the same unisex changing area a few weeks later.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

Gender is systemic. Historically, it’s been exploited as a political device for oppression of women. In fact, the semantics and the bones of gender are so interwoven with the patriarchy and biological sex that to compartmentalise them is madness.

Gender expectation exists independently. It’s essentially a spectrum of conformity to stereotypes. It is constantly in flux because it responds to shifting politics and semantics.

Sex is fixed. It can be determined by genitals and (in a vast majority of cases) chromosomal make-up. Our sex is whether we are male or female. HTH.