In my understanding of the trans issue.

[Randomusername01]

I'm trying to work out if I'm being bigoted or not. I agree with some of the trans posts I see here but others, whilst maybe not being anti trans by mn standards definitely come across as mean and on the verge of being anti trans imo. Anyway I digress. Am I right in thinking that gender is just a feeling, constructed partly by society and partly by individual innateness. So I guess I do agree that people can self I'd their gender along whatever myriad there is. But this is separate from anatomical sex, which bar a minority of cases either fall under male with penis and female with a vagina. So you could perhaps identify with being female but anatomically you would be male? So is the problem lies in how society segregates things such as prisons, sports, changing rooms etc. By gender or otherwise?

Dommina while you clearly feel the need to protect men for your personal reasons, please dont do that by lying about women.

No females have been transferred to the male estate.

Prisons were and should remain sex segregated because of the biological differences between sexes.

Not feelings.

Can you give any reason at all for spaces to be segregated by all the millions of genders?

Like Karen White was? And Ponting?

They should never be in a position to be transferred. They should have been away from women in the first place.

Dommina I’m in agreement with you. I will preface this by saying yes, I HAVE been raped, so I’m not coming from the fortunate position of never having been assaulted. But for me, the root of the issue isn’t even trans, it is prudishness. I detest British society’s sexualisation of the naked body. It’s only sexual in sexual situations. I would personally welcome a Scandinavian society where being nude in public changing areas was no big deal. The natural human body ISN’T a big deal.

I was brought up in a very openly naked home (chatting to each other while one was in the bath etc) and honestly it’s done me the world of good. I can, hand on heart, say that I’ve never had any hangups about my body or appearance for a start. I don’t find it awkward or embarrassing getting changed in front of other people (male or female) or having a male doctor do intimate exams. My feelings on this did not change after being raped. I’m also not in any way involved with the swinging or fetish scene, btw.

We are a developed Western society. I’d like to think we can move beyond the prescriptions of gender that say, in very basic terms, men are predatory/can’t control their urges and women are victims. I read an academic study examining how sex segregation could actually perpetuate negatively sexualising behaviour which gives credence to dommina’s ‘forbidden fruit’ comment. We’re not, for example, India, whose gender and sex ideas have a long way to go, rape is normalised, and women in rural areas DO need their own private segregated facilities to keep them safe. I see society becoming comfortable with the human body as the next step of evolution of this societal concept of sex and gender.

Having said that, sex offenders obviously are an issue, and there should of course be restrictions on convicted offenders being in places where they could harm women. This could be as part of their probation, a court-ordered restriction... whatever. It’s doable. Obviously. But using people like Karen White and Jacinta Brooks (and no, I don’t think convicted sex offenders should be able to choose a prison according to their chosen gender - I think exceptions should be made for this) as examples against self ID implies that all trans women are potential sex offenders, which I am uncomfortable with. Yes, 98% of sex crimes are committed by men, I’m not ignorant to that. But that doesn’t mean every individual man is a sex offender.

I honestly do not care about the thought of being in a room where someone has a penis. Especially if there’s a provision of cubicles for those who don’t want to see it. I’ve read a LOT of FWR threads on here and I’m really, really trying to put myself in the mindset of being opposed to seeing a penis just for a penis’s sake. I can’t. I just don’t feel that way, and I keep coming back to the same conclusion of prudishness. I don’t think that’s healthy tbh. I understand for some people it’s trauma but I also get irritated by the assumption ALL assault victims feel that way - I don’t.

My second caveat though is that I do believe in free speech, so I think those who want segregation by biology have every right to fight for that cause without being shot down. But I think both sides of the debate are toxic in the language they use - trans activists for inciting violence and gender critical for sweeping insinuations that all trans people are perverts.

Trans women face the same kind of oppression as non-trans women

Could you expand on this please, @AuntBeastie? On its surface it makes no sense, but I'm sure you can clarify your meaning for me.

I don't doubt that transwomen experience many forms of oppression, but I cannot fathom how they face the exact same issues as biological women.

Its great YOU arent opposed to seeing anyones penis.

Can you please explain why young girls who have been victims of sexual harrassment, abuse, assault or rape have to see penises everyday when they change for PE?

Or are you expecting school to install provate cubicles for all?

Same goes for rape crisis centres.

Will you personally be explaining to those womwn how the penis used to attack them is great and they should be fine seeing some more?

Whether they like it or not?

Sexual assaults are almost certainly ( difficult to collect true data ) going up not down. Seems a daft time to remove protections

20% of women have suffered sexual abuse. By men. It’s not a small risk. And the risk is greater if the man is able to convince you he is of no risk. The more people who look/sound/smell like men try to tell me they are no risk so want access to private spaces, the more scared I become.

Transwomen commit sexual abuse at the same rate as men. as a group, men think that abuse rate is too high so support sex based privacy. As a group transwomen think that rate is just fine and so won’t support sex based privacy.

Well for a start most primary school children all get changed in the same room together already, in my and therefore everyone I went to school with) experience there weren’t separate changing rooms until secondary. Also it’s not generally necessary to get naked while getting changed for PE.

I do understand how it might be more difficult for someone who’s been abused to break the association between penis and trauma but I also think, penises are a natural part of the body. They’re a fact of life. Where do you draw the line with removing things from society because they might traumatise someone? Teaching kids from a young age that bodies are not shameful or sexual or weapons or prey would foster a far healthier sense of confidence and agency over one’s own body, IMO.

So, how many women are acceptable as collateral damage whilst we get our tits out for all and sundry whilst the lads are reprogrammed?

It's all arse about face. It's not necessary for everyone to see your bits for men to see women as fully human and worthy of enough respect so as not to assault them for their own gain. There are other ways of achieving the we're all worthy of our boundaries thing before we test it out with full on dares.

Im referring to high school children.

Penises do not need removing from society. Noone has suggeated that. Just female spaces in society.

I strongly believe every female has the right to refuse to see a strangers penis.

Do you disagree?

It doesn’t Actually matter if transwomen face many of the problem of women, the solutions can still be distinct.

I suspect they also face some unique problems

Treating transwomen as a distinct group allows transwomen to prove how much abuse they get. It ensures that transwomen can not be treated worse than women...salary gap, job opportunities, access to health services. It ensures that men are not treated differently to transwomen despite presenting no additional threats.

I honestly just don’t get what all the fuss is about around a body part, to be quite honest. Yes of course, if a stranger says ‘let me show you my penis’ and you don’t want to see it then of course you shouldn’t have to! But in situations where getting naked is literally unavoidable like a gym changing room it’s not a case of accepting or refusing to see penises, it’s just that they happen to be there. I can’t get my head around what it is about them that’s so inherently frightening/offensive etc, when there’s nothing sexual about the situation. And as I said I think cubicles should also be there for people who don’t want that

Well the thing is I don't believe that (most) spaces should be sex segregated at all. But that's kind of beside the point. Until then, proper safeguarding and rigorous enforcing of policy is paramount. I don't believe in the 'male' brain anymore than I believe in the 'female' brain. I'm not trying to protect men, it's just my personal mission to fight gendered language and assumptions, including the ones I'm guilty of. I wouldn't tolerate anyone saying that 'women are stupid', and I wont tolerate 'men are violent'.

Also I'm not lying. I'm simply reading policy.
Its a word doc so I'm not sure how to link it, but if you Google this:
'ministry of justice trans policy'
And click on 'The Care and Management of Transgender inmates', on page 14 you will find policy which states that transwomen, and female prisoners, are transferred to a male estate, or refused transfer to a women's prison, when they are of a very high risk.

It also states in the GRA consulatation:
^Her Majesty’s Prisons and Probation Service has detailed policies on how to manage trans offenders, whether to place them in a male or female prison, access to treatment whilst in prison and so forth. While having a GRC is a factor in these decisions, a managed process also takes into account ‘lived experience’ and the view of the prisoner alongside individualised risk assessment, which forms the core of the decision-making process. There is provision within existing regulations to place a woman (including those who have legally transitioned) within the male prison estate. If the risk to other prisoners and/or staff is assessed as exceptionally high, then she can be held as a female in the male estate. It is also important to note that the women’s estate has protocols for safely managing many non-trans women who have convictions for
violence against women, including murder and sexual assault.^

Again, risk is a result of improper risk assessment, prison management, and safeguarding, not the fault of transgender people as a whole.

I respect where you're coming from. I was scared too, until I started to socialise and understand transgender people's position.

Therefore Johnny transwomen have absolutely no reason not to feel comfortable in male spaces.

So no need to change anything really, is there?

Well I would go down the route of having everything unisex with the provision of cubicles for people who want privacy so yes in theory I agree trans women would therefore be mixing with men in those spaces

We also need to consider the rights and needs of women from minority religious groups who for religious or cultural reasons will not be able to use facilities where they may have to share space with male-bodied people. What do you suggest we do about that JohnnyFinland? Tell Muslim women not to make a fuss about men in women’s spaces?

Cubicles everywhere would be great. The two gyms I use most regularly in my town both have a single sex communal changing area. One also has a single cubicle, the other has no cubicle at all, so there is nowhere private to change.

Sexual assaults are almost certainly ( difficult to collect true data ) going up not down. Seems a daft time to remove protections

Are rates going up, or is the rate of reporting and overall conviction going up? Seeing that we are going through a massive change in climate regarding sexual assault, could it be more that people are less worried about reporting what's happened?

Again, no woman has been transferred to the male estate.

Its great you understand the trans position.
Its ok you dont need sex segregated spaces.

Do you need wheelchair spaces, or shall we get rid of them?

What about braille?

Do you use that? Can that go?

Its insane one person can argue a provision isnt needed because they dont need it.

Sex segregated spaces are not intended to protect males, or transwomen.

They provide safeguarding, for females.

We do remove things from society if they cause harm.. DEPENDs on how much harm. 20% women absued is a lot of harm. Mental harm is harm.

How would you feel if you were raped? If your daughter or mother was raped?

Penises are also not waved about generally in society. Most men wear clothes in public. It’s a social norm about what is acceptable,

Once children get to an age where sex starts to matter , typically year 5 primary, we separate girls from boys because even if the boys don’t care, many of the girls do,

And if the men don’t care, then why do they care that thet are asked to give us some privacy? My body is not for your eyes and wet dreams . It’s called CONSENT. What are men losing by agreeing to sex based privacy?

I wouldn’t put it as bluntly as that waterlego but yes, if it became a society wide policy (which it won’t, of course, but in theory) it would be as part of a secular society. Faith-based institutions would be free to build segregated facilities but I think the de-sexualisation of the human body should be prioritised over religious objection when it comes to public provisions. Women-only events etc could obviously continue to cater for that

Poor men and their feelz.

Funny how my husband, and all the other decent blokes I know, understand why they are not welcome in women’s facilities. They know it is because their sex class is statistically more likely to be a risk to women than vice versa. They are not offended by statistics and understand that they themselves are not automatically suspected of being rapists. Most men are not offended at this segregation; why do women need to be offended on their behalf?

De-sexualisation of the body would be great, but as already described, will be a long time coming!

Midge did you read my post? I HAVE BEEN RAPED! And actually so has my mum! And I feel exactly the same as I did before I was assaulted.

Your post reads to me as if you’re coming from a standpoint that bodies are inherently sexual. I actually think it’s more important to question societal norms when they’re not necessarily helping us. I’m not suggesting we all ditch clothes in public, we’re talking about places where clothes have to be removed like a changing room.

For girls that feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of boys (or anyone), I’d hazard a guess that in a lot of cases that also extends to them having body hangups, feeling like boobs/vaginas are inherently sexual (as you seem to think), having low self confidence in their appearance. None of those are good things. I genuinely believe a society that was open and accepting and healthily indifferent to the human body would go a long way to eliminating those hangups.

It’s nothing to do with men and their feelings. I don’t really care if men are offended or not! I just personally see millions of women with body hangups because our society and its Victorian attitude to sex and bodies teaches us that they’re either shameful or too much of a temptation and I don’t think that’s a positive or healthy message

Sadly, my 13 year-old has some hang-ups about her body, yes. This is largely because of the unwanted attention she receives from boys and from adult men with regards to her womanly body shape. She has been made aware that she is subject to the male gaze, and she doesn’t like it.