To encourage Ocado shoppers to read this

[Estellesylvia]

If you are an Ocado customer, you should be aware that they consider defining ‘woman’ as an adult human female to be hate speech and not ‘in line with their values’.

They threatened to pull advertising from Primesite unless Primesite took down a billboard with the OED definition of woman on it.

They have received hundreds of complaints from women since, but have refused to apologise.

Just in case you might want to consider not giving your money to a company who consider the word woman to not be in line with their values.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3376466-ocado-boycott-after-support-of-primesight-action

And if you do decide to boycott, tell them why.

It is a bureaucratic tidy up to allow people to more easily change their birth certificate and passport.

Why do you think it should be easy to "change their birth certificate and passport"? Btw you don't need a GRC to change your passport, alarmingly.

You are incredibly naive and have swallowed anti woman transactivist propaganda whole. Your "research" obviously wasn't much cop.

The current UK proposals do not allow for gender fluid/ or no gender as an option

Not true. They are considering legal recognition for "non binary" gender identity.

The message is that trans women are not women, which isn't acceptable in 2018. It's prejudiced crap. 'adult human female' clearly implies that to be a 'woman' you have to be 'female' (ie have female genetalia) when it's well documented that people can be born in the wrong body and still identify as a woman.

Transwomen aren’t women because women are female and transwomen are male. Evil and controversial, i know.

Your complete lack of empathy for other women is utterly chilling.

YY.

The message is that trans women are not women, which isn't acceptable in 2018

According to whom?

Folk - law makers, politicians, organisations, education etc - have NO clue how to handle this. They don’t know what they are doing or understand the nonsense - they are just frantically scrabbling about trying to cobble SOMETHING together, anything.

which isn't acceptable in 2018

That's too bad then, because they aren't women, as women are adult human females. They're male. And huge amounts of stupid people chanting "ignorance is strength" will never change that.

Did we get a detailed analysis yet on how Ian Huntley is now a woman?

@babysharksmummy Anyone with a 'Ladydick' is not, under any circumstance, a 'Woman'. No matter what decade we're in or what other bizarre notions you have about biological fact.

A Woman is an adult human female. A man can feel or look as feminine as he wants. But he is a Man. An Adult Human Male.

@TimIsHavingABadDay

juells
communal loos/changing rooms results in a 800-900% increase compared to single sex facilities. The statistics are all there, I also posted stats about rape on my previous post

I know, I was replying to the nonsense claim that In many regards sex segregated spaces do not work and do not afford women (trans or via) greater safety. Just the illusion of that.

Juells, of course, they are then admitting that their idea of women relies only on gender stereotypes, which is probably why they wouldn't/ don't use it.

I'm still trying to understand why the billboard was offensive. I do unstand that it was meant to provoke a reaction, but I don't understand why it would get a reaction or be offensive.

The poster said woman = adult human female.

As I understand it from a pp, this is offensive as it excludes trans-women who are women as well.

For the poster to exclude trans women, it must be because they are not female.

Can we therefore not use women to now mean adult human females and males who identify as women?

And then for areas of life which need sex segregation, such as sports, medicine, intimate care and changing facilities, can we not use the term female instead of woman?

If trans-women say they are females, then I don't understand how saying woman= adult human female would be offensive as it wouldn't exclude them.

Incidentally, what are the OED definitions of sex, gender, trans woman answer man?

(I have asked this question in the other Ocardo thread and earlier in this one and haven't had an answer, so apologies for posting again but I really want to know/understand)

BiBi et al - why when asked what makes a self ID'd trans woman a woman, whether they be Pip Bunce or whoever, do you say "I don't know enough about them to comment"?
Surely the whole point of self ID is that individual cases are irrelevant, as just the statement that they say they are a woman is enough?!
So, there is no need for you o know anything about an individual's reasons, lifestyle, preferences, or history. They say they are a woman. They have self identified as such.
If this is truly enough for you to accept them as a woman, please explain in what way they are a woman.

I’d also like a detailed analysis on how this person linked below, who raped a baby with his penis, is a woman. Bibijayne? Go on. Tell us this is a woman. Go on. I fucking dare you.

torontosun.com/news/national/youngest-dangerous-offender-gets-dd-breast-implants

I'm still trying to understand why the billboard was offensive. I do unstand that it was meant to provoke a reaction, but I don't understand why it would get a reaction or be offensive.

It is confusing and yes your rationale is correct.

By complaining and removing said poster, the person that complained is saying that they don't really think that trans women are women, but that they feel it is not women's place to even define themselves unless it is in relation to trans women. The basic term for this is misogyny.

Women are not allowed to define themselves in 2018 even using a dictionary definition. Only MEN can decide what women can and cannot do, say and think.

It was to prove that men do not allow women the ability to self define, and they fell right into that trap. What was not expected was that Ocado would totally throw their own business under the bus by totally alienating the 82% of the audience that are actually women by totally agreeing that women are not able to define themselves as women, here, in 2018.

If trans women ARE women, why was Karen the Rapist who sexually assaulted women in prison, moved to a male prison after the women who were sexually assaulted complained?

Surely if they ARE women, they would still be IN a women's prison?

And I'd like to know how Stefonknee Wolscht is a five year-old girl. After all, that is what SW identifies as.

babysharksmummy thanks for replying to my question. However, what you write isn’t a meanginful definition as you’ve used the word you’re defining within your definition. So if I substitute a word I’ve just made up, you’ll see -

A plomp is anything that identifies as a plomp.

Not only do you not know what I mean by the word plomp but you are unable to know if you’re one as you can’t know what you might or might not identify as.

So unfortunately I’m still not able to understand your point of view, and I would very much like to.

Oh Ocado. How could you do this to me.

People reading this thread should be aware that the BBC fact check above, while factually accurate (which one would bloody well hope to be the case) chose (editorial decision) to omit crucial information without which readers could not put the "48 trans identifying prisoners in the male estate for sexual offences" into context.

There are 4261 prisoners serving sentences for sexual assault (overview of the prison system in December 2017).
www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/whogoestoprison.pdf

So 48 looks like small fry.

Until you realise (the bit the BBC omitted) that this number of 4261 exceeds the total number of women in prison for any offence which stands at 4035 (figures for November 17th 2017)
www.womeninprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php
From the same report - 46% have suffered DV, 53% have suffered some form of abuse during childhood, and 31% were in local authority care as children. This is a very vulnerable group of women, most of whom are inside for non-violent crimes such as handling stolen property or drugs offences.

And that of prisoners imprisoned for sex offences, approximately 98% are male.
In 2016, for instance, (a record year for female sex offending), 120 women were imprisoned for sexual offences.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/more-women-convicted-of-sex-offences-bfdvv2w37

Without that background, one could read that BBC article and assume we were talking about a large pool of sex offenders, split evenly between men and women, and a tiny proportion of trans sex offenders, and that moving them from the male estate to the female estate would make next to no difference to the existing state of affairs. It is only when you realise that women consitute a tiny fraction of sex offenders that you realise the impact moving male-bodied sex offenders into women's prisons would make.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale, I believe SW now identifies as an 8yo girl because the young child (6yo at the time, iirc) of the family that 'adopted' SW always wanted an older sister.

Incidentally, something funny is going on with google.

A few years back, if you googled some variant on "male and female offending, uk", you would get useful bar charts with the actual numbers by offending type for men and women, colour coded, side by side. You could see immediately that there were (a) far more male offenders overall and (b) hugely more male violent and sex offenders.

You don't get those any more. I find this weird.

Thanks for the correction, Science! I wasn't sure if Stefonknee aged chronologically or not, so this answers my question.

Sorry, got that the wrong way around. SW used to ID as a 8yo, but the adoptive family's granddaughter wanted a younger 'sister', so SW now IDs as a 6yo.