To say that rape may as well be legal in this country?

[Destinysdaughter]

Many years ago , Julie Bindel wrote this article saying that rape may as well be legal in this country.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2007/feb/01/penal.genderissues

Today I read the following article which will send a chill through anyone who has been a victim of this horrific crime...

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/25/revealed-uk-police-demanding-access-data-potential-rape-victims

I reported my rape about 20 years after it happened.
I saw the 'thing' that raped me in the paper for raping someone else. There were details in the report that rang so true, were so familiar, that I KNOW he did it. I reported it as I thought it might help the case against him.
I told them that I didn't want to pursue my own case. I just couldn't face everyone currently in my life knowing.
The judge instructed him to be found not guilty on a technicality.
My only hope is that he never does it again and if he does, the information I gave them helps.

I was 16 when I was raped. Even at that age I knew there was no point reporting it. I never told my family, although I eventually told a friend (after keeping it a secret for a year). I knew how it would go- I’d been drinking, I’d been willingly kissing him in public earlier in the night and happily walked off with him (he was a friend), and I was wearing a tight, low cut top. I was only young but I knew the blame would well and truly be placed on me. Took me a good few years before I managed to stop blaming myself.

Sometimes I wish I’d reported him but I know it wouldn’t have made a difference.

There was no point reporting my rapist. The police took 7 hours to respond to my 999 call when he was smashing up my house and beating me. I had also reported his abuse several times before but no policeman ever came once I said the word ‘boyfriend’ on the phone.

They did, however, turn up at my old address looking for me several times when I didn’t pay a fine for a minor driving offence.

They never once knocked on my abusers door. I didn’t bother reporting the stalking that happened after I left him. I knew the police didn’t value me by then.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-about-rape-conviction-rates

i was googling around for conviction stats and found this

rape convictions are at 58%, not 6% and they referenced MN getting it wrong then too

I've name changed for this. But I was raped in 2012 at the time that the lady mentioned in the article above was convicted because she withdrew her statement . I did go to a SARC and have evidence collected and then I did research and spoke to a court advocate. I asked them who is best placed to come through a trial and she said those that aren't hung up on getting a conviction.

I was in a really fragile state and it had been a ONS. I knew they would use that against me and I just couldn't bear the thought of being cross examined when I felt suicidal. I was also fearful that if it got too much I couldn't pull out without being convicted of a crime, basically my only route out would be suicide. What kind of a choice is that? I also sought out counselling and was informed that the police advise against it until after the court case, which could take up two years. How is that humane?

I was vulnerable, scared and contemplating dealing a system that was hostile. That is the reality and its totally shit. A few of my friends didn't understand but I had to look after myself.

Yanbu.

I know places that work with rape victims (counselling, advocacy) that either do not keep or they destroy all records so that the records cannot be used against the victim. It's horrific.

They will use the person's background against them - but if the defender has previous accusations or convictions of sexual assault or rape, even if the mo is identical, that cannot be used against them. Its completely biased and unfair.

If the victim has been previously tested for stds, for example, that will be used against them, regardless of why. Rape is rape no matter what the victims background.

And for those that are concerned about the very few false allegation cases - yes they should not happen, but they are reported much more frequently than the cases that are true, whether or not a conviction occurs. I agree false allegations should not happen. As well as the accused, it does real rape victims a HUGE disservice, because the media grab on to those few cases, making it appear like a much more prevalent problem and throwing doubt on to every genuine case out there.

araiwa, that article is taking about how many cases actually get to court.

Not many rape cases make it that far.

@araiwa that doesn't include rapes not reported. Only 15% of rapes are reported.

An attrition rate is the amount of convictions resulting from reports of a crime, and is not routinely calculated for any crime other than rape. Therefore without manually undertaking the exercise, it is impossible to compare the (true) attrition figure for rape with other crimes. A conviction rate is the amount of convictions following a trial, and is calculated for all reportable crimes.

Also, those figures are 8 years old. Here's some more up to date ones https://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

Do you think it's at all possible that you could maybe not hop on to just one thread about rape and try and downplay the reality and horror of rape? It's always the same people and it's SO predictable.

It's amazing isn't it? On a thread about the attrition rate - about the barriers in the way of women making complaints at all, about the impossibly high standards of evidence the CPS puts in the way of proceeding from complaint to prosecution, some complete fuckwit pops up to say "oh well of the tiny handful of cases that clear that nigh on impossible hurdle (because they're as close to an open and shut case as the CPS will find, precisely because they've already screened out all the others) the conviction rate looks okay."

to all posters who have been at the sharp end.

It takes a special kind of fuckwittery to come into a thread where women are describing horrific acts of violence and a complete distrust in the police service and go ‘but, but, but’. Balanced viewpoint my arse, you just want to stick the boot in.

Many (but not all) private counsellors write notes in such a way that if the police seized them, there is no detail in there that could be used against the client. Under gdpr you also have the right to view your notes and the right to have them removed as they are personal information about you.

The establishment weren’t prepared for yew tree and all the Rotherhams and me too and they don’t like what they’ve seen do they? They don’t want to see it, they want us to stfu again.

I'm just imagining a world in which complaints to the police of muggings were handled this way.

"Police interview with Mr. Fred Bloggs, just starting the tape now. So let's see your phone, Mr. Bloggs. Ah, here we have a sequence of donations back in January to Oxfam. So you like to give money away do you? ... Ah, even more interesting, here's an email to your best mate, back in March, complaining about the Oxfam Haiti scandal, and wishing you'd never made those donations... Suffer from the odd bit of post-donation regret, do we, Mr. Bloggs? ..." pause while door opens, rustling of papers being handed over... "Now this is really interesting. DC Jones has just brought me the CCTV footage from the high street last Saturday, on which you can clearly be seen giving some money to a chugger. So, looks to me like you like the odd bit of rough giving, Fred..."

CPS - we can't go ahead with this, it'll never stand up in court.

I've often said this before about how rape/sexual assault may as well be legalised. I work with victims and also have been assaulted myself.

Statistically speaking, if someone is accused of sexual assault they are likely to be guilty. Sometimes there are false allegations but these are few and far between but when people.have faced jail time for false allegations, they are far lengthier than jail time for actual sexual offenders.

Domestic Violence cases make up about 90% of cases in magistrates courts. If this was robberies/muggings there would be a national outcry. As it's majority women victims no-one is really bothered.

For every crime there are innocent people accused and sent to prison.

Very often there are no witnesses to murder, but the police don’t start from a standpoint of oh well he probably didn’t mean to do it (or maybe they do!).

I know someone who’s life was pretty much destroyed by being a suspect in a murder trial. No one suggested then or now that murders shouldn’t be investigated.

It’s only with rape where the possibility of a false conviction is discussed with such HORROR.

I never reported any of the sexual violence I suffered as a teen. I was a vulnerable teen, drinking, doing drugs etc. My one contact with the police was I was in town, ran up to a police officer, said that man is following me I don’t know him I don’t feel safe. They asked him if he knew me and could get me home he said yes and they walked off. Luckily I escaped that guy but it confirmed my view that police officers knew my ‘type’ just by looking and saw me as nothing but trouble.

encouraging rape victims to report and prosecute their attackers because theres a good chance of them being convicted would do a lot more for all women

But if you want to propogate bullshit low numbers that discourages women from even reporting the crime, leaving a more dangerous place for all women as these monsters are still freely roaming around, then you are bad, and you should feel bad

It's astounding. The MeToo stuff really brought it out in the open.

The CPS system won't put a case through if there's not enough evidence for a clear cut conviction. Is it for financial reasons or is it because the jury and judge are hugely biased against believing a victim, therefore it's a waste of money?

For me, the outrage comes at the public. How everyone around us seems to jump straight to "Well was she drunk? What was she wearing? Did she have any attraction to the perpetrator? Why didn't they run away?"

The lack of understanding and the outrageous judgements... it's mind blowing.

People don't want to be confronted with the horrible side of humanity so they choose not to believe or they choose to ignore the issue by dismissing it completely.

Murder is the easiest thing to solve after all very few ever consented to being killed.
Very few murder victims ever faked their ordeal.
People who make false accusations of robbery are called out and even prosecuted.
Fake burglaries for the insurance are punished.

But there are a minority who make malicious reports of sexual assault
Tying up police and the courts and diverting resources from genuine victims.

Yeah I'm not surprised.

The high up people are men so unless a woman is viciously raped then it may well be her fault.

Unfortunately I've seen this attitude many times. If you do anything seen as provocative it's kind of your fault.

Oh yes and if you're in the same friendship circle the woman loses friends, not him.

The day rape is legal is the day I riot (amongst other things).

If I took all the sexual violence I experienced or knew about to the police I’d need a dedicated unit to investigate it all for several months - and I’m Mrs Average. Maybe we all should have one day a year where we go and report en masse - safety in numbers? I’m sick of it.

Stop posting about fucking false claims - how can you have so little empathy for others?

This is a really hard issue. In an ideal scenario every rape victim would receive justice and everyone purporting false claims would be exposed and punished.

Unfortunately I think the practical aspects of investigation and criminal trial seem to innately cause undue distress and mental duress to the victim.

If you are the accused and your narrative is that this claim is false how are you able to persuade a judge/jury that you are innocent without collecting evidence to this affect? However, if the victim is genuine how is it right to be able to attack their personal character in this way, this is massively damaging to the victims mental state.

This makes me sad because there is no easy answer. The policy is 'innocent until proven guilty' which can seem like a bitter pill to swallow when something horrendous has happened to you and in order to get justice you have to put your entire life including your private thoughts and feelings up for examination. However, 'guilty until proven innocent' is not the way to go either.

I wish there was an easier process to securing a rape conviction that is fair to all involved.

It's amazing isn't it? On a thread about the attrition rate - about the barriers in the way of women making complaints at all, about the impossibly high standards of evidence the CPS puts in the way of proceeding from complaint to prosecution, some complete fuckwit pops up to say "oh well of the tiny handful of cases that clear that nigh on impossible hurdle (because they're as close to an open and shut case as the CPS will find, precisely because they've already screened out all the others) the conviction rate looks okay."

I know!! I could almost write how this thread will go - the same old minimisers pop up to spout utter tripe.

Next we'll have someone whose close personal loved one has been accused of rape and has had his 'life ruined' as if that's remotely relevant to the discussions around the difficulties in convicting rapists. This person is always someone who had a 'iron clad alibi' or there was zero evidence - which is clearly always bullshit given the ridiculously high threshold for clear evidence to be charged.

Then someone will mention Jay Cheshire (who was NOT falsely accused) as some sort of poster boy for poor victims of evil women and their evil actions, as if to say that no matter the 85,000 women raped every year they should STFU because men don't like being accused.

It's just another tedious exercise in silencing women about women's issues and/or trying to recentre those issues around men. It's pathetic, it's the same people time and again and I wish they would eff off to their MRA circles

But if you want to propogate bullshit low numbers that discourages women from even reporting the crime, leaving a more dangerous place for all women as these monsters are still freely roaming around, then you are bad, and you should feel bad

I don't feel bad for giving you accurate numbers. The fact is hat people like you, with your silencing and your minimising, are the reason women don't report rapes. Well done you

Well, quite Gunpowder. To quote that previous poster again:

But if you want to propogate bullshit low numbers that discourages women from even reporting the crime, leaving a more dangerous place for all women as these monsters are still freely roaming around, then you are bad, and you should feel bad

it really takes a special level of stupidity and innumeracy to think that correctly reporting a number (the tiny fraction of rapes which make their way through the system to a conviction), and to examine the reasons why this number is so small, and conclude that the reason for that number being so small is... wait for it... not social, cultural and institutional barriers in the way of reporting rape and getting those reports taken seriously, but instead the very act of pointing to the existence of those social, cultural and institutional barriers.

"No, no, no, it's not that women know damn fine from what the popular media (and below-the-line comments) say about rape victims that they'll get monstered if they report. It's not that the CPS and police no-crime things. It's not that the police are now trying to cover up their own cock-ups by insisting on a level of disclosure of evidence that is simply unsustainable, both in terms of the intrusiveness into women's lives, and the sheer volume of data the police themselves would be required to trawl through. It's not the fault of trial guidelines for not coming down hard enough on attempts to discredit witnesses through reference to past sexual history (yes, there are rules against this, but as we all know, more "honoured in the breach than the observance").

"No, it's none of these things. It's all the fault of feminism (again) for pointing these things out."

@araiwa

Utter bullshit.

The numbers don't stop women from reporting. The reality of what a woman is put through when going through the system is what stops women from reporting. The right of having to relive that experience with their attacker in front of them stops women from reporting. The way that these crimes are treated by some police officers stops women reporting. The knowledge that, in court, their history will be gone through with a fine tooth comb and used against them, where the attackers history is inadmissible stops women reporting.

I am doing my bit to ensure than women are given the support that they need to make the right choices for them, by being on the board of a rape crisis centre. I don't feel bad about saying what the facts are, I feel bad that the legal system lets women down so badly.

And other than sounding off in here, what do you do to help?

The conviction rate is inline with other serious crimes #rapemyths

The main issue is that people who talk about the patriarchy and rape culture tend to be people who are hard to take seriously.

with your silencing and your minimising, are the reason women don't report rapes.

Such inappropriate, wrong buzzwords

Im advocating for the exact opposite

If more women reported and got these crimes to court, it is better. Im not saying it would be easy nor comfortable for victims but more might decide to do it if they thought the conviction rate at trial is nearly ten times higher than the 6% quoted