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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

821 replies

Angryresister · 23/09/2018 06:32

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
0rlaith · 23/09/2018 10:14

Don’t you understand ? The safety and privacy of women and girls in guiding DO NOT MATTER.

The views of parents, many of whom will be male, DOES NOT MATTER.

All that matters is the feelings of a tiny number of men and boys who have been “terribly brave” .

It doesn’t matter that many of these women and girls have also been terribly brave by surviving cancer, rape or sexual assault , caring for a loved one with dementia, living with an eating disorder or mental health problems, coping with the loss of a parent or their parents divorce or the suicide of a sibling. Or being an asylum seeker or refugee.

The only bravery that counts is of MALE people who wish to identity as female. And they must be given what they want at any cost to women and girls.

No, of course they can’t join one of the many youth organisations that are mixed sex. Because that wouldn’t validate their feelings.

And no of course they can’t volunteer in any of the thousands of volunteering positions that don’t involve access to young girls.

And no, they can’t be expected to think about the needs of others, as in the Guide Law. The can only think about themselves and their “bravery”, which trumps everyone else safety.

smashyourglasses · 23/09/2018 10:14

Just don't send your girls there anymore, they'll have to fold eventually 👍 Or maybe it'll end up full of old pervs like that 'Stef on knee' bloke. Trans guiding! Guiding no one 😂😲

Kemer2018 · 23/09/2018 10:16

Yanbu.
It's another way of marginalising female rights to a safe space, free of penile possibilities.
I'd bet THAT IF a girl was molested it would be swept under the carpet as we don't want to offend the 1% group 🙄

Oakmaiden · 23/09/2018 10:19

Just don't send your girls there anymore,

In fairness, I don't think the OP does send her girls there. Looking at her posting history she only ever seems to post about trans stuff...

Not saying she has just brought this up because she has an agenda... of course not.

CarolDanvers · 23/09/2018 10:29

So what is there’s an “agenda”? Protecting women’s and girls spaces is a completely brilliant “agenda” and thank fuck there’s people willing to do it.

Molokonono · 23/09/2018 10:30

So the DBS worries are a bit of a red herring, in honesty

They are not, as the current approach is lobbying to get crimes committed as a male, struck off when a GRA is issued. See link below.

It only takes trial cases like these to go through once, for them to be used as case law and for all men to just remove any crime from their history.

And if Self ID comes through, that will mean just signing a form probably online.

And bingo.

Clean sheet that won't appear on any DBS check.

Any woman who cannot see what is going on here really needs to take some time and look into it as you are not understanding the demolition of women's rights that is systematically going on in this movement.

Being nice to trans people who have genuine issues is one thing, everyone wants to ensure that they have the rights that everyone else has.

But when these rights actually put women and girls at risk, and bring down all the safeguarding that we have spent decades getting in place, you have to ask yourself why.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-offender-seeks-to-wipe-crimes-as-aman-from-record-qfk5w68lb

babybythesea · 23/09/2018 10:32

I don't actually think the sleeping thing is an issue, it's more the insidious nature of being with a group of kids week in, week out, where opportunities present themselves.
I work with young people. I make sure that if, for example, one of them needs to go to the toilet, and I need to accompany them to make sure they don't wander off/get lost, I stay outside the block in full view of everyone outside. If there is a problem, I fetch another adult so neither of us is on our own with the child.

When I had a male colleague who ran workshops for teenagers, girls and boys mixed, we made sure he was never on his own with them - we set it all up so I could be an extra adult present while still getting on with my own work. We did it not because I didn't trust him but because it seemed like good safeguarding measures and it served to protect him from unfounded accusations.

Someone who was trans and wanted to work with young children would presumably do the same sorts of things so there would be no issue. I'd have no problem at all with this. I wouldn't expect to be told because I'd assume they were doing the sorts of things that protected both the children and themselves, as I do.

However, it would be so easy, if you were so inclined, to say 'I am a woman' and have access to young girls, and then to not put any of these measures into place. Volunteer at Brownies, go week after week, young child has problem with clothing, into the toilet to quickly 'help' them - now what? Anyone, trans or not, who has no interest in abusing little kids, simply will not put themselves in this position, or if they end up in it, won't take advantage of it.

But there will be some who will deliberately put themselves in this position, and then take full advantage of it. We know it happens. It happens in Scouts. These are not always people who like little girls by any means. What they can now do though is to say 'I am a woman' and access girls as well. Scouts have had major issues with it. It doesn't mean all scout leaders are paedophiles. The church has had a problem. Football has had a problem. Hardly any priests or football leaders are paedophiles. Which is no comfort to those who are abused by the handful who are. So far, Brownies and Guides has been relatively well protected because the most likely people to be sex offenders, men, could not access it.

Maybe before we throw open a space which up until now has been relatively safe, we need to look at why these organised spaces have not been safe for some kids in the past. Learn any lessons. And we need to make damn sure that someone with predatory intent couldn't do the same thing in Brownies.

It's not about hating trans people. It's about someone who actually isn't trans at all using 'trans' as a handy word to get access to young girls. I don't know what the answer is. I do know that if my daughter was exposed to someone who was trans who just got on with the job, (assuming I even knew, and I probably wouldn't) I'd be more than happy. Any decent person who can teach my daughter something is fine by me. If she came into contact with the 1 person in 10,000 who abused the system, and she came to harm, I would be ready to commit murder. And the fact that trans people are not the problem and that it was just the bastard exposing a loophole would be no comfort at all.

It is not transphobia to understand that abusive people will exploit a situation. So, how do we let trans people live their lives without creating a system for abusers to exploit? A nightmare question but I think it is the one we have to answer.

ButchyRestingFace · 23/09/2018 10:40

It's about someone who actually isn't trans at all using 'trans' as a handy word to get access to young girls.

Not sure I entirely agree. I don't care whether the person is "authentically" trans or not.

I don't want biological males to be able to infiltrate designated female spaces. I couldn't care less whether they're "authentically" trans, whether they've had reconstruction surgery or not.

Biological males should not be admitted to female only spaces, imo.

smashyourglasses · 23/09/2018 10:47

Oakmaiden, the OP sounds like they've got their head screwed on right then. Glad to hear it.

PeakPants · 23/09/2018 10:48

Trans people have the highest rate of suicide out of any demographic.

This is patently untrue. The statistics of 49% attempting suicide is based on a very small study in Wales where young people self-reported suicidal thoughts. It absolutely cannot be used as an indicator of the population as a whole.

The reality is that trans suicide rates of children are around the same level of children suffering from other psychological conditions, such as depression or eating disorders. However, in the case of the other psychiatric conditions, people accept that the disorder itself leaves people susceptible to suicide. In the case of trans, it is suddenly declared that it is totally normal to hate your body to the extent that you do not think you belong in it and want to mutilate it and that suicide must simply be a result of negative societal attitudes. Wtf- of course gender dysphoria is a psychological condition that requires treatment.

This rhetoric is being led by a dominant group of men who usually do NOT have gender dysphoria. All the ones going on about lady-dick and who retain their beards are not dysphoric. They have other reasons for wanting to identify as women. But by pushing the 'trans is not a mental illness' line, they are harming children and adults who actually have GD and need treatment. Of course it is a mental health condition- come ON. If body dysmorphia is a mental illness, then why is gender dysphoria so bloody different.

Scrumplestiltskin · 23/09/2018 10:48

Suicide rates

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-012-0013-9
Although LGBT youth have not been found to be over-represented in deaths by suicide, at least 16 studies of lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) youth have reported high rates of suicide attempts, ranging from 20 to 53 %. Among studies with rigorous school-based sampling designs, all found significantly more suicidal ideation and/or attempts among LGB students than heterosexual peers. The pattern of results showing differences by sexual orientation in suicide attempts, but not deaths by suicide, may reflect the methodological limitations of performing psychological autopsy studies, a tendency to over-report attempts among LGBT youth, or that LGBT youth may, in fact, be more likely to engage in non-lethal suicide attempt behaviors.
Most studies on suicidality in transgender individuals have focused on those seeking sex reassignment surgery or hormone therapy. However, Grossman and D’Augelli (2007) found lifetime rates of attempted suicide among transgender youth to be around 25 %. Among transgender people of color, risk for suicidal it maybe higher in youth than in older individuals. Higher rates of attempts and death by suicide have also been found in transgender than heterosexual individuals.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918369.2011.534038?scroll=top&needAccess=true#
Suicide attempt rates ranging from 19 to 25% have also been reported among clinical samples of transgender individuals seeking surgical gender reassignment. More recent data from nonrandom surveys of self-identified transgender people found that up to one third of respondents report making one or more lifetime suicide attempts. Suicide attempts appear to occur more frequently among transgender adolescents and young adults than among older age groups.

www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/siecno-20130200/
Of the female participants, 20.5% of bi-/homosexual students reported suicide attempts, compared to 14.5% of heterosexual female students. Of the male participants, 28.1% of bi-/homosexual students reported suicide attempts, as opposed to the 4.2% of heterosexual males within the study.

Also, this page has a great collation of studies across Europe on LGB and also some T suicide rates, attempts, and ideation.
people.ucalgary.ca/~ramsay/gay-lesbian-bisexual-suicide-studies-europe.htm
From a quick skim, it seems that lesbians have the highest rates of suicide attempts, going up to 36% based on my quick look, and rates of suicidal ideation of up to 55% in the past year.

Yes, transgender suicidal ideation and attempts are high (there are no stats on completed suicide,) but they are on par with LGB people. And the often touted "41%"9 stat includes ideation, not just attempts.

Scrumplestiltskin · 23/09/2018 10:50

Sorry for the typos, I'm on my phone Confused

mnistooaddictive · 23/09/2018 10:56

I am a girl guiding leader, parent of girls involved in guiding and a teacher dealing with trans pupils. The vast vast majority of trans people are clearly not paedophiles or predatory but we have to avoid loopholes. As we are now finding out, 50 years ago some paedophiles became priests or worked as teachers in boarding schools because of the access it gave them to children. We can’t create a new area where paedophiles will lie and cheat the system to get access to children.

I would choose to never take my brownies away rather than leave them vulnerable.

Onlyhappywhenitrains1 · 23/09/2018 11:06

So, how do we let trans people live their lives without creating a system for abusers to exploit? A nightmare question but I think it is the one we have to answer.

Treat them with the same risk factor we do as "traditional" males.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 23/09/2018 11:09

Of you choose to id as a baby or dog then thats something that you don't usually take to work with you.

Look to Canada and the creature that says he is an 'ikkle girl' and has many ears in Canadian politics. Is that where we are going?

ButchyRestingFace · 23/09/2018 11:15

Treat them with the same risk factor we do as "traditional" males.

That would be my view. Smile

Juells · 23/09/2018 11:16

CarolDanvers

So what is there’s an “agenda”? Protecting women’s and girls spaces is a completely brilliant “agenda” and thank fuck there’s people willing to do it.

Exactly. If you can't have an agenda of protecting women and girls on a site for women where the hell can you have it? This is the right forum for that agenda.

0rlaith · 23/09/2018 11:19

So, how do we let trans people live their lives without creating a system for abusers to exploit? A nightmare question but I think it is the one we have to answer

Why do women have to answer this? Why is it our job? We are slightly busy with fighting for the rights of women and girls as well as 90% of the housework, wifework, parenting and paid work.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 23/09/2018 11:19

It's not just physical protection is it? If I joined GG at, what 11 and I was camping with a hairy arsed guide called Betty I'd be terrified.

I'd certain never seen a naked male at that age (not for a long time) and was a rally a bit scared of men (apart from my dad and Bro).

2cats2many · 23/09/2018 11:21

I do agree with you PeakPants I feel like a people with genuine GD are being given a very rough deal indeed here.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 23/09/2018 11:24

How many would that be? Why join mumsnet?

Juells · 23/09/2018 11:27

How many would that be? Why join mumsnet?

Sorry Fekko, who was that a reply to?

Racecardriver · 23/09/2018 11:28

I don't care if a woman used to be aam but if she's got a penis she has no business sharing tents with little girlsm

BabySharkAteMyHamster · 23/09/2018 11:30

I'm 35 and can recall having a transgender helper at guides when I went !!

YABU.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/09/2018 11:30

I do agree with you PeakPants I feel like a people with genuine GD are being given a very rough deal indeed here

Look, I sort of agree with you. But we are not at fault. The TRA idiots who started up the 'self ID' nonsense are to blame for changing the rules so that the spotlight falls more widely. Not us.