To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

I have concerns about the whole issue of past identity erasure.

If, as some are lobbying for, you can't ask about a past identity or even do a bit of digging about yourself, then how can you be sure that this person hasn't got a criminal record?

That loathsome creature in Dunblane was well kown as being a creepy guy who had an unhealthy interest in children and volunteered for a local gymnastics (was it, or cubs?) group. He had no record though - although he was someone that definitely should not have been a million miles near kids.

So he could have changed his name to Sally Smith and erase the suspicion, the police report from worried parents, any cautions or convictions and walk into the local GG group as a helper? If anyone raises a coming they told be thrown out and not him?

If you thought that hands were tied before...

I worked in a place where we had (always male) stalkers and harassers. They would come to the office and basically menace the women and be aggressive. One really hated women.

So if he decided he was Mary (and he had serious mental health issues) and wanted to go to the women health group meetings (as he tried to do but was thrown out because he was a man) then we couldn't stop him? He was unpredictable (quiet of on his meds, scary if off them). The police could do nothing 'until he physically did something'. Him screaming abuse right in your face wasn't enough.

So a DRB will be useless if some people get their way.

Citations requested on trans suicide?

Half of trans pupils in the UK have attempted suicide

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/27/half-of-trans-pupils-in-the-uk-tried-to-take-their-own-lives-survey-finds

Suicide rate for trans population ranging from 32% to 50% across a range of countries
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

Approx 41% of trans people attempt suicide in their lives

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933817318357

Of course I am ignored the patently transphobic non-source that is Transgender Trend.

I am shocked at the lack of empathy and the very apparent transphobia.

Does the policy for how these men are 'managed' around girls differ from how female helpers are 'managed' around girls?

Yes because they will use the same showering and toilet facilities and as a previous poster has pointed out female leaders do sometimes sleep in the same space as girls and also with younger ones.....brownies, rainbows may help them get. Changed, etc. So a person with a penis who may or may not be a paedophile will now be able to do this.

Yes, I agree with you OP. I would expect to be fully informed about the sex of whoever is caring for my children in these kinds of situations, and who is sharing their toilet, shower and sleeping facilities. If that makes me a bigot then tough shit.

Juells DS1 would say it's not about wanting to, anymore than someone wants to be gay. He has life-threatening health issues, he really didn't need this headfuck on top of it.

The risks of suicide and murder for trans people have been badly misrepresented, as others have already pointed out.

In children and teenagers identifying as trans or nonbinary there is a huge crossover with having mental health problems like depression or anxiety, being on the autistic spectrum and/or having been abused. Any one of those increases the risk of self-harm or suicide. It's suggestive that some research studies show that risk does not go down after surgery.

That was just the first page on a google search. This does suggest those claiming the suicide rate is a 'lie' have not even had a lazy google.

TigerDrankAllTheTap citation please, that's not from Transgender Trend.

The Guardian quotes the Stonewall survey which is deeply flawed (they didn't even publish the methodology)

The literature review is quoting unquestioningly the flawed PACE study. I can't view the 2nd literature review but it sounds like it is also referring to the same study.

I’m sure there could be some transpeople who are also paedophiles. I suppose I’m thinking of the case of the trans woman prisoner who’s girlfriend was adamant he was making the whole thing up. I do also see the trans community’s issue with an apparent labelling of trans people as paedophiles when I’m sure for the majority that’s not true.

Half of all transgender prisoners are sex offenders or violent category A inmates. That we know of.

If you cannot 'count' the actual sexes how can you even begin to look at 'sexism' as a concept? If the prison service doesn't 'count' who is male and who is female, then how can it even start to unpick all this?

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

A transwoman very often is a straight male (though they identify as 'lesbians') would you put a heterosexual male in a tent sleeping with a bunch of female children?? Hell no you wouldn't! Of course parents should be told that this will happen and have the choice whether to allow their girl to share sleeping quarters with this person.

You would think so wouldn't you?

Any sane rational adult would think so.

Two women guide leaders have been thrown out of the Guides and their units closed for doing what sane rational adults would all do.

Girl Guides guidance is that nobody sleeping with the men, ever need to know about it.

Creepy as fuck eh?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/34139ed0-bea5-11e8-8d21-451ec1df6b83

YANBU, OP. This is a big part of why DD2 has left guides.

Remember that today's 'trans' kids were last generations 'gay' kids.

I haven't read the suicide figures reports but I will when I get time.

Where were the kids recruited from and who decided they were trans? Who carried out the survey? What were the control groups? Were the kids asked under the wing of any particular support groups? Was their social media usage considered (have you seen some of the social media threads and sited - bugger me it's bleak and 'change or die' mentality. Very very melodramatic and dark)?

Who will do surveys around girls missing school because they won't shower with boys after gym, girls who won't use the toilets at school because they are unisex, girls who sty home when they have their period because they are too shy to go to the loos, girls who avoid sports and gym because of the boys being in there, girls missing out on sports scholarships because they are running against boys, girls who won't join girl guides because they have boys there too and they have to pretend that they are girls, girls who get pregnant by 'Mary' when away at sports camp, girls spied on or abused by men and boys in women's toilets...

Genuine transsexuality is a very small minority. Transvestites are not men wanting to be women. They are men wanting to pass as a version of femininity whilst keeping their penis.

Yes I know it's also f2m but how often are their voices heard? Who is driving this agenda? Follow the power, follow the money.

@PhilomenaButterfly

Juells DS1 would say it's not about wanting to, anymore than someone wants to be gay. He has life-threatening health issues, he really didn't need this headfuck on top of it.

Why are you replying to something I didn't say? I didn't say anyone wants to be transgender. This is what I said... If you are a man who wants to wear female clothes and say you are a woman - crack on. But why then insist on getting into female spaces? Do you absolutely have to volunteer with GGs? Does a boy who thinks he's a girl have to join GGs? Why not work with or join a mixed group? Why does it have to one of the few places where girls can be on their own with other girls?

Parents and girls should be asked if they're happy with a male-bodied young person sharing changing facilities, dorms, tents, etc. with the girls at GG, regardless of how that young person identifies.

Google Lila Perry, who cannot be properly discussed on MN without risking deletion. Some boys who identify as girls are empathetic and considerate of girls' needs. Some are like Lila.

I was a Guide. At the time I wouldn't have minded if a boy who identified as a girl had joined the group, because I'd have wanted to be nice and kind and inclusive (although as an adult I think there's value in single-sex spaces for teenage girls). However, if I had been expected to share facilities with that boy, and called a bigot if I objected, I'd have left Guides.

At 15 i would have thought it was a brilliant idea...
So a trans teen who likes to have sex with girls and produces sperm can spend the week in a tent with your more traditional style girl.
Cant see what everyone is getting so upset about.. what is the problem? Girl penis, boy penis it is still a penis with penis potential ok?
Now that a penis owner can camp in with the girls hey go Girl guides your totally get what is to be a girl

I always wonder why transwomen or transgirls (so boys identifying as girls) would want to join girl guides at all? There is scouts if you want to join a group like gg, but why join somewhere where you know your sex is going to cause problems and make other people uncomfortable? It seems to be born out of a desire for validation, for shoving it in everyone's faces that they are females just as women and girls and they are not. They are deliberatly out for confrontation, showing they care more about themselves than they care about others. And then they complain they don't get treated with respect.
Btw, talking more about transwomen here and not only gg. Also the transgirl athletes in the US made my blood boil: 5 out of the six athlete winners were male in one state.
Why do women suddenly have to share everything that was previously theirs because we have to feel sorry for them? It is like the rich being shamed into sharing all their wealth with the poor. Why not go fight for that?

That was just the first page on a google search. This does suggest those claiming the suicide rate is a 'lie' have not even had a lazy google

Er no. We just don't believe everything we read on teh interwebs. We consider things critically and ask questions.

Here is one source where the issue is examined properly.

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330 This is a recent journal article about rapid onset gender dysphoria. It's been criticised for its methodology, largely as far as I could see by people who were not pleased to see an article on this subject matter getting published, but somebody has to start somewhere and this got through peer review to be published in an academic journal. From this self-selecting sample of 256 concerned parents, 41% of their children, described as adults/young adults (AYAs), had come out as gay/lesbian before going on to id as trans.

Many (62.5%) of the AYAs had been diagnosed with at least one mental health disorder or neurodevelopmental disability prior to the onset of their gender dysphoria ...

I haven't read the entire thread, but people are talking about DBS checks.

You need to have certain pieces of documentation to apply for a DBS check. Without a group 1 or group 2a document it is not possible to apply for a DBS. Group 1 consists of passport, biometric residence permit, driving licence, original birth certificate or adoption certificate. Group 2a consists of non EU driving licence, paper driving licence, birth certificate, marriage certificate, HM forces ID card, Firearms licence.

It is not possible to hold these documents in an assumed name without applying for them with your original name. I haven't explained that well. Basically you can't apply for any of them in the name of Mary White without supplying documentation that shows you were born as Mark White.

This means that even if you only give the name "Mary White" when applying for a DBS, the passport office etc know that your name was originally "Mark White". So if you haven't given Mark white as one of your previous names (and you are expected to - there is a special DBS route for Sensitive Applications of this sort) the DBS will know.

So the DBS worries are a bit of a red herring, in honesty.

If suicide rates are so high it begs the question are they committing suicide/mentally unwell because they’re trans or are they trans because they’re mentally unwell? The trans aspect could be a total red herring.

SerenaOverjoyed

This is a bit old 2012, but is interesting reading:

www.scottishtrans.org/trans_mh_study/

"58% (N=492) identified as having a disability or chronic health condition. 36%
identified that they had a mental health issue, with nearly a fifth of the sample
experiencing some form of learning impairment or intellectual disability or other
neuro-diversity"

'In terms of mental health concerns, 62% of the respondents reported feeling
emotionally distressed or worried about their mental health whilst attending a GIC
(N=293). Of those participants 53% felt that they were not able to discuss these
concerns at the GIC'

"66% of respondents reported that they had used mental health services for reasons
other than access to gender reassignment medical assistance (N=621).
The participants who had stated that they had used mental health services were
then asked which types of services or support they had used. Antidepressants were
the most used intervention, with 75% of those who had used mental health services
taking these. 54% of the respondents had been taking antidepressants for one year
or more"

"Rates of current and previously diagnosed mental ill health were high, with many
participants additionally feeling that they may have experienced particular issues
which remain/ed undiagnosed. Depression was the most prevalent issue with 88%
feeling that they either currently or previously experienced this (N=549). Stress was
the next most prevalent issue at 80% (N=498), followed by anxiety at 75% (N=512).
For all but stress and depression, more participants felt that they had a mental health
concern which remained undiagnosed, than had received a diagnosis. Further study
should elucidate the reasons for this. In all cases, where a diagnosis had been given,
the majority of participants felt that it had been accurate"

"Almost half of the participants, 49%, experienced some form of abuse in childhood
(N=536). The table below demonstrates the types of abuse that were experienced,
with emotional abuse being the most prevalent."

'For the participants in this survey, 65% felt that there were trans related reasons
which made them think about or attempt suicide, while 61% identified non-trans
reasons as relevant. This suggests that although being trans may be one factor, others
are also relevant."

"24% of the participants had used drugs within the last 12 months (N=577). A range of
drugs had been used, however the most common were cannabis (11%), poppers (3%)
and ecstasy (4%)"

'The AUDIT-C was included in the survey as it gives an indication of damaging levels
of drinking. A score of above 3 suggests that an individual is dependent on alcohol
or engaging in alcohol abuse (see www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Alcohol-Use-
Disorders-Identification-Test-%28AUDIT%29.htm#ref3)
Of 576 participants 62% scored above 3, with 47% scoring between 4 and 12. This
suggests that there may be significantly harmful levels of alcohol use amongst trans
people and warrants further investigation.'

There's a lot more, but it'll probably be easier and nicer for you to read the actual report