To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

Why do women have to answer this? Why is it our job? We are slightly busy with fighting for the rights of women and girls as well as 90% of the housework, wifework, parenting and paid work.

YES. THIS.

Please can you explain this a little bit Op? Do you know this for definite?

My daughter is in Guides and I certainly wouldn’t want her sharing rooms, showers or toilets with men or boys. I’m sure that’s not allowed. Someone who says they “identify” as a girl or woman but has a Penis surely can’t be treated the same as any other girl or woman? So a 14 year old boy identifies as a girl and kind guides and sleeps next to the teenage girls and uses the same showers? Surely they wouldn’t allow that to happen?

BabySharkAteMyHamster

I'm 35 and can recall having a transgender helper at guides when I went !!

But why? That's what I don't understand. If you're trans why would volunteer for GGs? You don't have to. There's a million other things you can do.

On my iPad and it's not letting me copy and paste.
I said that we need to answer the question about letting trans people live their lives without creating a system for abusers to exploit.
Someone answered with why should women do that on top of everything else (oh I feel that pain!).
I actually meant 'society' when I said 'we'. Not women, but anyone. My DH would be as distraught as me if someone hurt DD, so it's not an issue that only affects women. In practice, I suspect you are right and unless it directly affected them (through their niece, sister, daughter etc) most men wouldn't give it any headspace. But I didn't mean it should all be left to women.

But why? That's what I don't understand. If you're trans why would volunteer for GGs? You don't have to. There's a million other things you can do.

Look, there is nothing wrong with volunteering for GG if you are trans. There are men who volunteer- it has never been the case that all volunteers are natal females. This is distracting from the actual issue. The issue is that they do not have single sex facilities. Your child will not be harmed by being taught or helped by a trans person. Having to share facilities is a whole different kettle of fish though.

It's highly likely that womens and girls rights are going to end soon. Can any women on here who don't care about this, please explain why not? I'm fascinated.

And why not ??

We also had aa young man who had downs syndrome that used to come in and help if we were making cakes........luckily we were a pretty, open minded bunch and have yet to be scarred by either interactions. I still speak to both if I see them in town.

So, how do we let trans people live their lives without creating a system for abusers to exploit?

Maybe transwomen can live their authentic lives but accept that they can’t be girl guides.

MrsJonSnow, yes, it’s real, it’s happening and they’ve just thrown out two leaders (one a mumsnetter) who questioned it.

What's all this sharing toilets, tents and showers stuff ??

I may well be old but guiders didnt share our tents, it was kids only. They had seperate sleeping facilities.

I don't recall seeing anyone naked in the showers either (( or having a shower at all for that matter, we were obviously a smellh bunch ))

Going back to Guides, you should get to know the leaders in anycase if you are sending your children off on a camp for example. I think you will know if someone has transitioned and if they are genuine leaders.

Not possible when they go off to district camp etc.

Someone replied to my post that we need to treat transgender volunteers with the same risk factors that we do anyone else.
Which I do agree with, but it links to what I was trying to say in the rest of my post.
Fact is, we know abuse happens. In Scouts and football etc etc. so far, the perception is that GG has been largely free from it. I don't know if that is true but if someone asked me if my child was more at risk in GG or Scouts from abuse I know what I'd say. (No, I don't think it's particularly likely anywhere. But it does happen and if I had to choose I'd say more likely in Scouts.)
So our strategies of risk prediction or harm prevention aren't perfect. And yet, the one safe space girls have, we are talking about opening up to that risk. Adding risk where there doesn't seem to be any at present.

I don't have answers. I don't think there will ever be answers that everyone is happy with.

It's not a matter of not wanting children to mix with people who have a disability or who are from another minority group.

It's about taking sensible precautions to keep children safe, and whether Girl Guiding is reducing their safeguarding by moving from sex-based segregation to gender-based.

Specifically, GG has decided that trans girls and women will be treated like natal girls/women when it comes to sharing accommodation and nobody else will be notified, so parents' and Guides' ability to make their own risk assessment is affected.

Once this becomes more widely known, it's bound to lead to a reduced membership from certain religious groups. Whatever we think about the rights and wrongs of religions treating males and females differently, making it impossible for Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women/girls to go into public spaces and groups is a backward step.

It's not helped that they seem to have done this without consulting their members, the members' parents and guardians and their leaders, and they have attempted to stifle debate by refusing to answer questions and now firing Guiders who have criticised the new policy.

I think the issue, babyshark, is that while most people will have had and will have the same experience of you, it's a system that is open to abuse. Most leaders will have no interest in exposing themselves to kids, or sharing a shower space, or seeing kids undress.
However, if someone with predatory intent against young girls announces he is female, then the opportunity is there.
That it happens in scouts shows that we aren't always good at preventing it, but knowing that we are opening it up in Guides. (Yes, women can abuse, but most abusers are men so it's not really been a question guiding has had to face before now).
In some respects, I'd have more worries about Brownies. Guides are fairly independent with regards to self care, brownies not so much. But they do go on camps.

I was trying to work out what the difference was between this situation though, and my dd's male teacher taking her on school camp. I think the difference is he doesn't say he is female, so he doesn't access the girls facilities. Female staff go and do that.
Someone says 'I'm trans' and now they can access everything. And if some girls have chosen guides precisely because it is a safe place and they need that because of past experience, then what?

BabySharkAteMyHamster

We also had aa young man who had downs syndrome that used to come in and help if we were making cakes........luckily we were a pretty, open minded bunch and have yet to be scarred by either interactions.

WTAF? Why on earth shouldn't a young man with DS come in and help with making cakes. Why have you dragged that into a completely different conversation?

I assume there are appropriate background checks on anyone involved in groups like guides, etc. So does it matter what's in their pants?

So does it matter what's in their pants?

Well would you like your 14 year old DD to be sharing sleeping accommodation with a 14 year old boy? How does 'I identify as a girl' magically eradicate the risk of pregnancy, loss of privacy, sheer embarrassment?

Because appropriate background checks reveal who has been caught. Not what their intent is. It's not fail safe for scouts. We know that. Should we be opening girls up to the risk as well?

Leaders
Do
Not
Share
Tents
With
Girls

I'm not even allowed to share with my own DD who is my unit's Young Leader!

You
are
naive
if
you
think
things
will
only
happen
when
it's
dark

I mentioned this to a young teenage friend of mine, and her first thought was - 'you mean xx [my boyfriend] can come to camp now?' They sleep in small groups of two and three at times. She'd be all in favour of this!

no, I don't think they would really go through with it. But I could imagine someone trying it.

It does seem that child protection has gone out the window with this policy. It's not about thinking most trans people are predators. It's about protecting girls from those who decide this is a convenient loophole to allow them to access girls.

Here's a share token link to the Sunday Times story referred to earlier:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/girl-guide-leaders-expelled-for-questioning-trans-policy-550x7m55r?shareToken=65c8d021613171819f6979c0ab3d8902

The situation is that two Guide leaders have been expelled for publicly raising concerns about Girl Guides UK's safeguarding policy.

A few people on this thread have suggested that those of us who are troubled by this are "transphobic" and are accusing trans people of being sexual predators. Not so: we do believe, however, that trans rights are being used by sexual predators as a simple means of gaining access to victims. These predators rely heavily on the support of well-meaning but naive people with progressive views, who have been misled into believing that the campaign for trans rights is akin to the historical struggle for gay rights.

We know that sexual predators are attracted to roles where they have easy access to victims: teaching, the priesthood, medicine. Those roles are ones you have to train for. If you're a sexual predator, what a gift, then, to have an organisation that will allow you access to victims without having to do anything at all.

Obviously there are two separate issues: that of allowing male to female trans people to become guide leaders and that of allowing male to female trans children to join the guides and share tents and other facilities.

On the first issue, I don't feel entirely reassured by the use of a DBS check, because there always has to be a first offence. I would hope, however, that the use of separate facilities for adults and children affords some protection.

The second issue, whichever way you spin it, represents a safeguarding concern if teenage boys (however they identify) are allowed to share sleeping facilities with teenage girls. Even without the risk of rape or sexual abuse, there is the clear risk of consensual sexual activity between teenagers. As a parent, I'd be enormously concerned about this, and especially concerned if the Guide Leader was prohibited from telling me it was happening.

I’m pretty sure Iain Huntley identifies as a woman now. Some want him to be able to change his id and erase his male past. Just putting that out there.

My daughter is in Guides and I certainly wouldn’t want her sharing rooms, showers or toilets with men or boys.

Under this policy you will not be informed if this is happening

Yes it is, this is the policy GG have made.
Someone who says they “identify” as a girl or woman but has a Penis surely can’t be treated the same as any other girl or woman?
If your dd says that at guides she may be expelled, you will at least be told that it is her problem that she is a transphobe.

So a 14 year old boy identifies as a girl and kind guides and sleeps next to the teenage girls and uses the same showers? Surely they wouldn’t allow that to happen?

Yes they are.

And it's not just guides. Liverpool council have adopted this stance. It is coming to a school near you soon.

At the moment this is a policy, you have 20 days to stop it becoming law. Please fill in the consultation and ask anyone and everyone you know to do it too.

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004

🙄 you have no right to the medical history of other people.

YABVU & prejudiced

I was a Rainbow leader many years ago and my daughter is now in Rainbows and the leaders always sleep in the same room as the girls. They tend to have sleep overs in church halls.

The problem wth self ID is it allows anyone to decide who they are for their own agenda. It’s not really about trans people. It’s about changing rules designed to protect. The current single sex rules cover all males but not all males are rapists and murderers.

My niece and nephews male headteacher hid a camera in the school toilets to film the kids, my friend was sexually abused by his male music teacher, my brother is 48 and his youth club leader was recently jailed for making indecent pictures of boys at his home. The youth club leader also worked for a charity advising people how to access voluntary positions. This doesn’t mean all males abuse but it shows the system needs to be better not made easier to exploit.