To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

My DS comes with me to usual pack nights and some day trips, and I wouldn't be able to be a leader if he was completely excluded by GG rules. The single sex rules mean that much of the indoors accommodation we use is not practical for him to accompany us and I have to make alternative arrangements for him.

The rules are there to safeguard him and the girls of the pack. Some of which are in his class at school. If he took on a female identity, they would be aware of his male history and anatomy. They are approaching an age of bodily change and discomfort. Soon we will have to stop using communal changing rooms at swimming pools, not because he is a predator, but to protect bodily privacy and prevent causing discomfort to others. Those rules are there for good reason.

It concerns me that safeguarding rules can be breached by the words "I feel like a female". It is transparent that a leaders son is present or a male unit helper. To double speak that an obvious male is female is confusing and potentially distressing. Many members of GG are vulnerable, probably disproportionately so because it is a safe female space that is attractive to those looking to gain confidence.

I have no issue with male unit helpers being present and abiding by safeguarding rules. I have concerns when "feeling like a female" trumps safeguarding and presents an opportunity to the minority of preditory males. There is precedent of sexual offenders using female identities to target victims or evade detection/ capture. That doesn't mean that all our units are under siege, far from it. But the whole CRB/ DBS system was introduced because of the outcry of the devestating high profile actions of a few individuals and recognising that something had to be done to prevent the wider problem of preditors from gaining access to vulnerable people. It is common for women to change their names, and statistically less likely for them to have something to hide on a DBS check. It is unusual for a man to change names. Protecting vulnerable people should be more important than "dead naming" but you are reliant on a person putting safeguarding above rhetoric.

I am just pointing out that if BakedBeans47 posts her comment Biological males should not share with females onto Twitter she will get an onslaught of outrage.

I think the issue is that predatory paedophiles have always targeted situations where children are vulnerable. I think there are two issues; safeguarding checks should be stringent and should include whole lifetime records, including when anyone was recorded under another name or gender identity. The other issue is about whether we want to tell girls to privilege gender dysphoria above sexism in the hierarchy of needs. Do they get to put themselves first? Cos they will know perfectly well what natal sex somebody is, and they will pick up the message that the comfort of trans people is more important than that of women. The only reason to have a girl go to guides and not scouts is to have the chance to put themselves first, and a period of single sex education is one of the very few features consistently linked to high levels of female success in the workplace. So the choice is one of giving natal girls that opportunity to develop their potential, or trans community members the chance to feel included. For me, the clue's in the name.

If we're talking about boys in Guides then yes, I agree that they shouldn't be allowed in. I don't see a problem with male leaders though, as they sleep and shower separately. The issue in the OP seemed to be about this trans leader.

Lol. I am GC. I just think you do have to square that with the circumstances under which you should expect to have knowledge of someone’s private circumstances. Given youth organisations have leaders of both sexes even in same sex groups I don’t think it’s necessarily essential to know that the leader is a man, just because. Equally I don’t think it’s necessary to know the “gender identity” of other people who just attend the group. When that extends to a leader or anyone wanting to share sex segregated space, I do think that’s different.

TwoOddSocks

Tht is straight out of the TRA handbook and simply not true.

Suicide rates are highest among teenage boys.

1/4 women is a victim of rape and or sexual assault. Two women EVERY WEEK are killed by a partner or ex partner, two trans women have been killed in as many years.

Women are paid less than men, even for the same job.

I doubt there is a woman alive who has not been catcalled, followed or otherwise made uncomfortable, this is the only time trans women actually do share a feeling with women.

Trans people have the highest rate of suicide out of any demographic

Citation please

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

BillywilliamV
How often do they sleep at bloody guides anyway? dont send them camping if youre that worried, or maybe keep them awsy so you can raise another generation of hate filled bigots.

So again, it's girls who are to be excluded if she or her parents feel uncomfortable to be sharing toilets and tent with a boy who feels like a girl.

I know one transwoman ( out of the 1000s of people I have ever known) and she is far too busy trying to get her parents and work colleagues to accept her to have time to molest your kids.

It isn't about your friend, who presumably isn't trying to join GG. It's about the GG organisation deciding for absolutely no reason whatsoever that they should start virtue signalling at the expense of the children they're meant to be facilitating.

here we have a thread complaining about trans people who have taken time out of their lives to help young girls.

Why would they do that when they know that a lot of parents would object? What's their reasoning? I don't understand it. "I know there's been a huge silly fuss about this, but if I want to do it then I'm going to, screw everyone else."

It’s the worst thing about mumsnet. Every single day another thread like this

It’s currently one of the best things about MN. That they’re forcing people to be aware and consider the unpalatable and indeed dangerous aspects of TRA and self ID. Without this resource 1000s would still be unthinkingly accepting these changes because they’re not aware of how far reaching these changes will be and how women’s only spaces will disappear entirely. How people can’t see the utter tragedy in that alone, before even getting into the inherent dangers, is beyond me.

It’s currently one of the best things about MN

Agreed.

Trans people have the highest rate of suicide out of any demographic.

This is a lie.

here we have a thread complaining about trans people who have taken time out of their lives to help young girls

The best way to help women and girls is to leave us alone in our own sex-segregated spaces and to ensure that safeguarding guidelines are clearly maintained.

I don’t think that the OP is saying that trans people are predatory paedophiles at all. I think she’s saying that predatory paedophiles may pretend to be trans people. I’m sure at some point this will happen/has happened. Look at the male prisoners (rapist) who have said they’re female, get put in a female prison and then sexually assault the female inmates.

You don’t have to take hormones, you don’t have to have surgery.....just sign a form and it’s done. Access all areas. It’s a predatory man’s dream situation.

Safeguarding children or vulnerable people seems to have been chucked out the window.

Suicide rates in the U.K.:
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2017registrations
The highest risk factor appears to being male.
I don’t think there are any reliable stats for transgender people, although a Swedish study suggests that suicide risk after gender reassignment surgery is still higher than the general population.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
Given that anyone going to these extreme lengths to feel comfortable in their body is likely to be psychologically disturbed, and the unsatisfactory outcomes of much of this type of surgery (not to mention the discomfort of cross sex hormones), this is hardly surprising.

to be being male

I also believe that this link should not be revealed to anyone except those handling the check. It would be an offence under GDPR to reveal that information unnecessarily.

‘Under GDPR’ I would argue the guide leaders and attendees have a right to know as they have a legitimate interest.

Adult volunteers don’t sleep in the same room as girls.
In GG we do. If there's only one room, we all sleep on it.
And I deserve my boundaries, too.

I think she’s saying that predatory paedophiles may pretend to be trans people. I’m sure at some point this will happen/has happened. Look at the male prisoners (rapist) who have said they’re female, get put in a female prison and then sexually assault the female inmates.

Why do they have to pretend to be transpeople? Can predatory paedophiles not actually be transpeople, just as they could be men-born-men?

It's fashionable when a transperson gets caught with their hands in the sweetie jar, as it were, for transactivists to say, "oh, well they couldn't have actually been a transperson - they were just pretending." I don't understand that logic.

Now to be fair men who identify as men have been helpers for at least 25 years, so not sure why this matters

Does the policy for how these men are 'managed' around girls differ from how female helpers are 'managed' around girls?

Are you saying that these men are allowed to help with for example a girl starting her first period?

@PhilomenaButterfly
YES WE DO FFS.

If gg believe being a woman/girl is simply an internal feeling then this needs to be clear and spelled out to anyone connected with them, in order for everyone to understand what is going on. Anything to do with children and safeguarding that requires secrecy should not happen. As a parent, I feel we were coming to a bit of a consensus about safeguarding children after scandal after scandal but yet, here we are, diluting boundaries and knowingly not properly informing parents so they can make their own risk assessments.

Caroline161 does the child have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria?

Right FACTS
Leaders (female) do sleep in with girls. We have sleepovers in church halls, museums, zoos etc.
Sometimes there is only one showering area though we'd usually get leaders to go in separately.
We take girls swimming. Rainbows may need help changing or if they have a toileting accident. Many girls may need to get changed even on a day activity e.g. water activities. Some halls and meeting places have one or two toilets. We took our girls to a hall with two sets of loos, men and women, the girls wouldn't use the men's though we labelled them Girls, so effectively they (the girls) had just one set of loos. No room for anyone who feels uncomfortable.

It's not all one person tents and enough loos for adults/children/men/women to have one each.

Why do they have to pretend to be transpeople? Can predatory paedophiles not actually be transpeople, just as they could be men-born-me

I’m sure there could be some transpeople who are also paedophiles. I suppose I’m thinking of the case of the trans woman prisoner who’s girlfriend was adamant he was making the whole thing up. I do also see the trans community’s issue with an apparent labelling of trans people as paedophiles when I’m sure for the majority that’s not true.

Believe me I have a problem with the lack of safeguarding, I have an issue with men in women’s spaces. But I do feel sorry for the average trans person who until a few years ago was living quietly in their chosen gender, not going in women’s spaces, etc. And now the whole movement seems to have been taken over by a bunch of idiots who are so self centred and demanding attention and rights, etc. It seems they’re harming some other trans people as well as women.